Originally Posted by flighthappens (Post 10840693)

The fact that the word was being used as a C/S in the 90's, but particularly on CONUS shows a lack of understanding. For the record, I didn't get it either (I just knew it was a naughty word, not to be said) until I moved to the US and understood the deep hurt inflicted across multiple generations, and the continued lack of social equality.

Have a great day!

Originally Posted by Bob Viking (Post 10840676)

I understand how Sqn history and loyalty works. I am also an avid reader of all VC exploits and have undying respect for all who have earned it. Indeed as a past member of 6 Sqn and 419 Sqn I know what it is like to serve on a Sqn who can boast a VC among their alumni.

I have total respect for Gibson and fully respect his right to have called his dog whatever he wanted. My opinion of him is not changed by his choice of canine epithets. My opinion of you for standing up for what you believe in is also unchanged (though some people may well form a different opinion).

I just cannot abide the N word and all it stands for in the modern era. I honestly do not think a memorial plaque with that word on it belongs on an RAF station in 2020. It should live in a museum, where it can be viewed in a better context and contribute to a wider discussion.

I realise we will never agree on the matter but, just as I promise not to view you as a racist, please don’t see me as a modern luvvie, snowflake who wants to erase history. Far from it. But I draw the line at the N word in this context.

BV

Originally Posted by flighthappens (Post 10840693)

The fact that the word was being used as a C/S in the 90's, but particularly on CONUS shows a lack of understanding. For the record, I didn't get it either (I just knew it was a naughty word, not to be said) until I moved to the US and understood the deep hurt inflicted across multiple generations, and the continued lack of social equality.

Have a great day!

Originally Posted by BBK (Post 10840705)

What I’m trying to illustrate that the gravestone was not vandalised at all. The new one, assuming that the one shown is that on the right, has the same text as previously. Only the name of the dog has been omitted. Does that qualify as rewriting history? All this outrage over a minor change that in my opinion was quite sensible given the evolving political climate.

Bing and Tashengurt made a very good point that it would be unacceptable for a serving member of the RAF especially from an ethnic minority to be faced with such a racially abusive word. Also, like Bob V I just find it unacceptable and insulting.

One last point I’d like to make is that it’s disingenuous to suggest that this word has only become unacceptable recently in the light of pc or woke culture. I first heard the name of the name of the dog probably in the late seventies from my late father. He was Vulcan ground crew on 230 OCU in the fifties so was well aware of the history of 617 squadron. He was quite clear to me that it was highly insulting to use that word. There you go, a lesson in treating your fellow men and women with a modicum of decency and respect from someone who would now be 86.

BBK

Originally Posted by SOX80 (Post 10840727)

....but you must admit it is a huge distraction from the Dambuster's story.

Originally Posted by SOX80 (Post 10840727)

Clearly many don't care if people are offended by it....

Originally Posted by SOX80 (Post 10840727)

I think the amount of traffic on this thread kind of makes the point for removing the name. Like it or not the word was offensive in the 19th century, it was offensive in 1940 and it is offensive now. For many the word has come to epitomise the subjugation, abuse and marginalisation of an entire race. Clearly many don't care if people are offended by it but you must admit it is a huge distraction from the Dambuster's story.

Originally Posted by just another jocky (Post 10840736)

It is when people keep brining up a very minor part of a much bigger story.



Clearly? Who exactly?

And many people may be offended by your implied racism when you have no facts to support it. Woke liberal/left populism and bullying is no substitute for a proper discussion, and neither is attempting to delete the past.

Originally Posted by Bob Viking (Post 10840723)

We know where you’re going with that comment. But the one vital fact you’ve missed is that it would be black people saying it to other black people. That is their prerogative. Though it would be much easier to deter everyone from using it if nobody were to use it.

As a white person I do not have the right to use that word and I’m fine with that.

Please don’t use that last comment as your argument in favour of the dog’s name. Others have put forward far more eloquent arguments.

BV

Originally Posted by Bill Macgillivray (Post 10840766)

Seems to be getting out of hand (OK, I am of the older generation but I do not condone racism in any form)!. One of my best mates in 1962 at Wyton was a Trinidadian Flt. Lt (AEO), the "insults" flowed both ways and we remained (along with many others) best mates until he died. He must have been one of very few coloured aircrew officers in the RAF in those days but (in my opinion) he was one of the best in all ways and, to my current amusement, a great fan of Gibson and his dog ! Times change, but do not judge anyone by their colour, only by their actions !

Bill

Originally Posted by LOMCEVAK (Post 10840800)

What has happened to the original plaque? It is a historic article that should be preserved in an appropriate context. My suggestion would be that it should be kept by 617 Squadron with their other memorabilia but I am sure that there are other very suitable places.

Originally Posted by Islandlad (Post 10840737)

Agree. 617 is not the only squadron in the RAF. This thread, when read by outsiders, puts quite a spotlight on the institution which clearly does not want to be seen as racist. Removing the plaque and replacing it with a less offensive version does not change the history. Insisting that it is not offensive and should stay does not look good in 2020. We all know the history. If these comments continue it may look easier to disband 617 and go for number in sequence. 617 are way out on their own in the list of active squadrons. The film will never be re-made for one reason. The Squadron could have a short future for that same reason. As I said before - catch up and shut up!

Originally Posted by Islandlad (Post 10839332)

I have though about not responding to this thread. What I write will not be received well by many contributors. Here we go.

What the men of 617 did that night was heroic. They deserve the title. Sadly their memory and legacy will be tarnished because of a racist name given to a dog and the code word used that night. Any attempt to defend it and say it is not racist by some convoluted arguments will put you in the racist camp today. If you try to defend it you are quite simply a racist.

By all means argue with me. It is your right. A right the men of 617 and all the others who fell to protect that freedom , and still do, have given us. But I send you a warning. If you carry on down this path, the attention will turn from the 'grave' of a dog, to the Squadron itself. If you push back on the grave marker, I predict that 617 squadron will be the next target.

Was Guy Gibson a racist? Probably. But one of the 'soft' racists who gave his dog a controversial name. It's what the world was like then. We can all think of examples of our own 'soft' racism and that of previous generations. Let's see it for what it was. Don't defend it and accept the world has moved on for the better. If you argue with me you will turn the spotlight on the Squadron itself. The days of 'soft' racism are long gone. Today you are just a racist.

And by you I mean anyone who attempts to defend any of this today. Do so if you wish. Others are trying to address histories racist undertones. Changing the grave marker goes some way towards that. It does not change history, it recognises that the past was not always a great place. It's the same past that men and women gave their lives for, fighting the evils of Naziism.

The world has moved on. Catch up and shut up.

Originally Posted by Vortex Hoop (Post 10840820)

Comments like these on Sqn numbering demonstrate quite clearly that you have no idea what you are talking about. Please stop labelling those who have served as racist, as it is obvious you have not.

Originally Posted by mopardave (Post 10840841)

Very kind of you to allow anyone to argue with you................and then you tell them to "shut up"! Freedom of speech is okay, so long as it's yours, right? Cheers mate............I bet you're a right laugh on a night out!

Originally Posted by just another jocky (Post 10840536)

But then it's not the name of the dog that was important, it's the dog that was important....that's a big distinction in this case. The dog was important, still is to those current and ex-members of the Sqn, and it had a name. Yes, it is very unfortunate that it had a name that carried disrespectful, hateful connotations, but it was of the time as has been explained so eloquently on here by others. But it was his name.

Originally Posted by Islandlad (Post 10840929)

OK - have it your way. If the media turn against the RAF, and they could easily, it may be 617 consigned to history. This is seriously controversial stuff in these times. Petitions to keep an inflammatory word on 'public display' in the middle of the station, where it has to be guarded by a 6ft fence? Seriously?

Using any opportunity to type the word on this thread. Oh it's OK because the RN named a ships cat back in the day. Ha ha - we used the call sign in the 1990s and it didn't go down well.

Of all the film's of heroic raids that really could do with an update and CGI makeover, it's the Dams Raid. And what's the first brick walk they hit? The name of the dog. Today it has racist tones. They are not even under tones. 3 dams 3 code words. Use the other one? No. It's the name of 'the' dog.

As for claiming its a 'war grave', talk about disrespect in a thread about respect of the countries past fallen!


If I was on a night out and this conversation was had in public I would walk away. You are scating on thin ice here. It's not about my opinion. Even I don't care about my opinion. I'm not telling you to 'shut up' to curtail you freedom of speech. Im exercising my freedom of speech to strongly suggest you pick another bit of history to go to the wall over.

Originally Posted by George Glass (Post 10840936)

There is nothing quite so futile as judging one generation by the standards of another. The Cancel Culture is the most pernicious , illiberal, pseudo intellectual, virtue signalling drivel to be created in this sad post modern world. I have zero confidence that the so-called Western World has the wit or the courage to defend its values anymore. Its over folks. The future belongs to China.

Originally Posted by Spartacan (Post 10841011)

For the record the word 'niger' is the Latin nominative masculine singular for the colour black. It is pronounced with a long 'i' as in 'neeger'.

Gibson would have learned Latin at school so given that the dog was masculine the literal translation of 'Nigger' in the context he used it would have been 'black dog'.

There is no suggestion that the term was used was used as a derogatory reference to African Americans.

Had the dog had white fur he might have called it 'Albus' - 'white dog.

If it had had brown fir he could have called 'Fulvus' or 'Spadix'.

If it had been auburn or redidish brown he might have called it 'Zingiberi' but that might have raised a few eyebrows in the Mess is it's a neuter noun and could have attracted some banter.

Obviously, in today's terms that could be seen as offensive to red heads and that's really dodgy as they can be really feisty about having their race treated humorously as I know being married to one!

Originally Posted by MG (Post 10841032)

Yes, context that is just not relevant to the argument. Trying to explain its etymology doesn’t take away the fact that the word is consired offensive. Here’s an idea, instead of just making a simple change to a headstone, let’s give everyone Latin lessons. That’ll solve it.

Originally Posted by George Glass (Post 10841035)

But it is relevant. Where does this end ? Do you have a list of monuments, books , literature, art etc. you are going to take personal authority over ?
Isn’t it obvious where this ends ?
Shall we all just break out the hammers and knock the noses of everything we find objectionable ?
We have been here before.
It ends badly.

Originally Posted by George Glass (Post 10840936)

There is nothing quite so futile as judging one generation by the standards of another. The Cancel Culture is the most pernicious , illiberal, pseudo intellectual, virtue signalling drivel to be created in this sad post modern world. I have zero confidence that the so-called Western World has the wit or the courage to defend its values anymore. Its over folks. The future belongs to China.

Originally Posted by Easy Street (Post 10841072)

My bold. I think you are confusing posters on here with the RAF. It could have become a distraction had the RAF not just got on with replacing it; the RAF is not fighting to keep it; there is no battle as far as the RAF is concerned. What private individuals wish to argue is up to them.

Originally Posted by fltlt (Post 10840847)

Lomcevak, we have some friends over tonight for supper, one of the married couples is African American, late 50’s. The husband is ex US Army.

I asked if they would mind reading through this thread, give an opinion on the subject matter.
Husband had an inkling about what the RAF was, wife no idea.
Before they did, let them browse a condensed version of the dams raid.

The husband appeared to read most of it, the wife just shook her head and disappeared into the kitchen.

When he had finished, and please, nobody get offended at this, his opinion was “So this N...... is supposed to be upset about a black dog in the 1940’s called N....... why? They would be really upset if I told them what we called our pet stray dogs in Desert Storm!”

Now, I understand that is only one persons opinion, but it’s a start. Be interesting to hear what others opinions are.