Absolutely agree Nutty.
It's one of our great hero's dogs FFS.
Have any of you who complain about such things ever tried to fly the route they flew that night when they destroyed the dams?
I have - in a fighter during daylight and it was bloody difficult - the Eder is mind boggling.
His dog died - so did several of his crews.
Thanks to all of you. Amazing feat of flying and courage. Who cares what the bloody dog was called???

Terrible PC bollix. 'Nigger' was indeed a part of the history of the raid and should not be 'cancelled' from history. I hope the idiot at Scampton who ordered this vandalism finds no peace.

We are all entitled to our views. The original plaque did not bother anyone, so why change it? My own personal view is that there was absolutely nothing wrong with the name that Wg Cdr Gibson gave his dog; a common name for a black Lab at the time. We cannot change history, just learn from it.

A lot of people in the thread above say they would never use the N word.
I’m the same, I wouldn’t either.
Let’s not forget that members of the black community, particularly males, refer to each other as N****r to this day.

Very common at the time I understand, along with the name Sam** my FIL (ex Lanc pilot) gave the family black lab in 1964, at the insistence of one of his Indian friends. They had second thoughts almost this as soon as they named him and he was always called Sam.

Different times, different values. history is history, you cannot change it, as much as you might like to.

Here it comes...
 

I have drunk more wine since my last post but my feelings have not changed.

I understand Squadron tradition etc but I am a white man with little sympathy for leftist leanings and I hate the word.

I honestly don’t care that it was acceptable 77 years ago. It isn’t now.

Anybody who knows about RAF history knows the real name of the dog. Anybody who doesn’t know the original name can read about it on Wikipedia.

Seriously people, don’t let your dislike for the contemporary habit of erasing history from distracting you from the fact that ni&@er is a word that just doesn’t need to be used in 2020.

Disagree with me all you like but you won’t change my mind.

Anyway, back to my wine.

BV

They might now, but if removed from history along with the code word, they won’t in a 150 years or so.

Mind you we’ll all have probably been genetically modified by then to survive on the planet we destroyed and will all be a tasteful shade of grey.

Nutty
 

So what?!

It’s the name of a dog.

Nobody is erasing the history of the Dambusters raid. Nobody is erasing the fact that Guy Gibson won a VC for leading a Squadron on an incredibly dangerous mission during a fight for national survival.

What has happened is that someone has seen fit to change a memorial plaque to a dog (a fricking’ dog!) that had a name that is no longer acceptable.

Honesty, drunken BV is really struggling to see what the Bloody problem is.

BV

Along with the code word bob, enjoy your vino :)

Let's remember this was the 1940's and referring to black people as niggers was the norm.
It was still common in the 60's as I can remember buying a polo shirt from BHS in Brighton that the colour was labelled as 'Nigger Brown'.
Again in the 60's we had a weekly 'To Death us do Part' where black folk were referred to as 'Coons'. Other TV shows such as 'Love thy Neighbour' and the 'Black and White Minstrel Show' were standard viewing.
It's history and can't be whitewashed [Sic].

Bob, what’s your position on Brickhill’s book? Pulp all copies, or just take a black marker pen to the offending bits?

NbM
 

I understand how history works. I also understand how words such as the N word were used by many people in the past.

Your last example cite the 60s and 70s. Maybe it’s time to move on or maybe accept that your views are no longer appropriate.

Your opinion will undoubtedly be that I am a young upstart with no respect for his elders. I’m afraid that, increasingly, my opinion is that some people have no respect for other humans.

Yes, the wine has taken hold. But I’m not sorry.

BV

INTBH
 

Leave the book as it was. I’ve read it and appreciate it for what it was. I doubt if Paul Brickhill would wish his entire book to be remembered for the name of a dog.

I never said we should erase history. I’m just saying that a plaque that commemorates a dog (a dog!!) at a base that will soon cease to be a military establishment being altered is not the end of the world.

I guess this is a generational thing. Many of you think I have no respect for my forebears. The trouble is that, the more I read, the more I think some of you have no respect for your successors.

I guess we’re all wrong in each other’s eyes.

BV

Bob V

Well said! The “N” word is highly offensive and that’s widely recognised although not here on this forum perhaps.

I think we all believe that the heroism of 617 Sqn should be respected but it’s a small price to pay, in my view, to quietly drop reference to the dog’s name. Not in official records or historical books but where it might seen in public.

You simply cannot and should not attempt to change History! It was acceptable then, in the context of those times, and to try and change it today is an insult to the memory of those brave men who served their Country then.
I am offended by that insult to our History, but I guess that my sense of insult does not matter today in the fashionably sense of what is right today! Erase our History is the watchword.

TF

One of the principles of Ingsoc. Orwell would be pleased.

In my opinion simply changing the headstone is vandalism in and of itself. It should be considered an irreplaceable War Grave.

Changing the words is another whole level of desecration. Gibson was not known for his enjoyment of fools and I could well imagine his thoughts at such an outrage. Has anyone thought of that? It was his dog, his name was immortalised with a specific historical significance and now we whitewash it? (pun intended).

This is akin to removing the names of all previous Prime Ministers because like the Egyptians there surely can only be one leader. Where is this complete nonsense going to stop???

Aren't records public? If you can't see something what's the point?

Whilst on the subject, perhaps we should get rid of all Roman history, aqueducts, Coliseum, in fact, level Rome (I know a good code word when it's done) most of Greece, the Pyramids, Bath, dig up and remove all stonework under almost every road in Europe....

I once flew with a pilot who had served at Scampton during the war when 617 left Scampton.

He too said the actual grave wasn’t there.

He also said he knew where it really is, and those that were there in the war knew.

However he wouldn’t share the information.

(I have to add this even though it’s off topic.
He also got completely lost in a Wellington one night, and was in a Lancaster that looped, pulling up hard to avoid fighters, decided it was probably best just to try and go over the top, the aircraft held together and all was well. I didn’t realise the bombers were thrown around quite so much, but apparently they were when fighters turned up.)

The controversy around the dogs name is distracting from the actual valour shown on the raid. For that alone I personally advocate dropping it....as BV has said - it’s a dog. I’d rather recognise the heroism of the men involved.

Did the communique read by the BBC, announcing the raid the morning after, include the line ‘...and the raid leader’s dog also died’? No, I guess not. My assessment then is that the dog wasn’t really an integral part of that history, therefore, no-one is trying to re-write history, apart from those elevating the status of a dog to that of deity.

I have though about not responding to this thread. What I write will not be received well by many contributors. Here we go.

What the men of 617 did that night was heroic. They deserve the title. Sadly their memory and legacy will be tarnished because of a racist name given to a dog and the code word used that night. Any attempt to defend it and say it is not racist by some convoluted arguments will put you in the racist camp today. If you try to defend it you are quite simply a racist.

By all means argue with me. It is your right. A right the men of 617 and all the others who fell to protect that freedom , and still do, have given us. But I send you a warning. If you carry on down this path, the attention will turn from the 'grave' of a dog, to the Squadron itself. If you push back on the grave marker, I predict that 617 squadron will be the next target.

Was Guy Gibson a racist? Probably. But one of the 'soft' racists who gave his dog a controversial name. It's what the world was like then. We can all think of examples of our own 'soft' racism and that of previous generations. Let's see it for what it was. Don't defend it and accept the world has moved on for the better. If you argue with me you will turn the spotlight on the Squadron itself. The days of 'soft' racism are long gone. Today you are just a racist.

And by you I mean anyone who attempts to defend any of this today. Do so if you wish. Others are trying to address histories racist undertones. Changing the grave marker goes some way towards that. It does not change history, it recognises that the past was not always a great place. It's the same past that men and women gave their lives for, fighting the evils of Naziism.

The world has moved on. Catch up and shut up.

^^

Good post and a worthy contribution. Used intellectually, and in specific circumstances, the "history" defence is valid, credible and necessary. Used glibly, as a catch all, it's just naked institutionalied racism. This is very clearly the latter. The contribution of the hound and codeword are insignificant, the word is nowadays utterly beyond the pale to any decent human being, the row completely detracts from one of the great feat of arms of warfare.

That's my ten penneth...I'm moving on, so should some of you.

Your ten pennath is well spent! A perfect summary, in my view.

1984 is coming to life. Winston Smith too.

The truth cannot be tolerated. History must be changed to suite the 'diktat' of the day. It will be changed again to suite the next 'diktat'.

Is that the 'freedom' that was being fought for?

BV shows the demonstrable behaviour all officers should show - leading by example.

I am offended that you are offended!
 

I am sorry but I take issue with the notion that the 'N' word has become 'grossly offensive'. So when did that change? Probably about the same time that the 'F' word became acceptable to use in public. I still find the 'F' word offensive, probably harking back when I my derriere thumped for using it.

The word was enshrined in the common law for many years as its use would invite a charge of offensive language - despite the use of it double-barrelled by our American cousins invoking one's maternal parent. Same with the 'C' word - a derogatory term that could otherwise be described by its proper definition.

So this concept of 'offensive' is purely manufactured. I say become an engineer (you know, build a bridge and get over it). I shall retire now to eat my pork pie in the local synagogue. :*:ugh:

Oh dear, and with that you've just offended large swathes of the black community who use 'the word' in everyday language, how racist are you?🤣

Trying to be a bit more objective in the approach to the debate, you actually need to look at the etymology of the word. The first real use of the word dates back to Roman times and the word Nigrum or Niger which means black or dark. As many western languages are based upon Latin then it doesn’t seem surprising that the word is prevalent in English, Spanish/Portuguese (negro), French (nègre), Dutch (neger) or Italian (nero). There are also various forms in the English language - namely niger, nigger, neger and negar.

Well before the Slave Trade and the racism that ensued from the period, the word was used in various texts from the 1500s. The earliest known published use of the term dates from 1574, in a work alluding to "the Nigers of Aethiop, bearing witnes”.

The use of the word ‘nigger’ as derogatory term developed later In the late 18th Century alongside the established use that had been ongoing for literally millennia before that (that being in reference to a dark or black colour). It was used to put down people with African origin, mostly in the Americas, and that is where the offensive use remained for many years. It probably reached it’s pinnacle of awareness in the racial context in the 1950s and 1960s with the work to end segregation in the USA.

So, it really comes down to intent. If Gibson named his dog ‘nigger’ as he saw it as a way to put down people with black skin, then that would indeed be a racist intent. However, if he named his dog ‘nigger’ due to the Latin derivation and the fact the word, at that point, had not become such a word of abhorrence amongst many today, then that is a different matter. As others have said, we cannot erase history, and we shouldn’t - if amongst Gibson’s memoirs we find that the naming of his dog was with racist intent then of course it should be called out and the name removed. If not, the dog’s name should remain and people should be educated that there are 2 contexts to the word ‘nigger’ - one which dates back thousands of years to the Latin language and the other, which is with derogative intent, should never be used.

Ahhh, the old "it's 2020 not 1820" routine. Bravo.

Just because time has passed on the Gregorian calendar doesn't mean that 'stuff in the past' should be arbitrarily dumped. Democracy, monarchy and marriage are all old. Do we dump those too?

Despite your post calling us racist time and time again, in these awful times of mob rule the R word has ceased to have any further useful meaning as it is thrown about too easily.

Just a thought, but if you were an ethnic minority service member at the station or even just in the RAF, how would you feel if the management thought remembering a dog's name was more important than not having a derogatory term for you in plain sight?
My unit has a lot of ethnic minority service personnel, and frankly I'd find it impossible to justify leaving it up even if none of them complained about it.

Just a couple of observations.

I don't believe the gravestone should have been changed but I am all too aware of the politically correct times in which we exist and therefore I was disappointed rather than surprised.

On my many visits to Scampton for exercises and courses, I was always under the impression that the dog was not actually in the grave. Perhaps he was 'thrown over the hedge' or maybe it was those naughty Vulcan co-pilots !


I am getting tired of being expected to apologise for historical events upon which my generation nor my parents or grandparents generation had no control.

The silent majority will not remain silent for much longer if these trends continue.

I wonder who actually made this decision - Air Force Board, AOC, Staish or OC Admin ?

To those who continually say 'it was just a dog', I would simply say this; I would rather spend eternity with my dogs than the majority of human beings I have encountered in forty five years of flying !

Imagine a black 17 year old LAC walking past the original and seeing that word.
How valued would they feel in this 21st century Royal Air Force?

Edit: I see Bing essentially makes the same point above.

New name
 

I am going to call my next Black Lab dog 'Gibson'.
As to the 17 year old LAC, I would hope,having enlisted in the Royal Air Force that he/she or whatever,would be aware of the history of that remarkable raid.

Although being dark blue I don't really have a dog in this fight, I would be intrigued to have a glimpse of all the relevant paperwork leading up to the decision to alter the memorial.

On a lighter note, I'm also intrigued that no one has pointed out either the "Black Labs Matter", or that there are unlikely to be any 17 year old LACs, whatever their creed or colour.

Jack

I was a 17 year old LAC once upon a time.

Why not get rid of the dog's grave. History doesn't matter anymore, to hell with the past, including the Damn Buster Raid. We have to join the 'modernistas' and decry the past and all the horrible things that were done to upset the modern PC gang!

Goes to show how bizarre/bonkers/mad the world has become due to various "useful idiots" on "anti-social" media. Far more important matters that require very urgent attention in these strange times.

I have just realised and am ashamed to admit that my grandmother was a rascist.

She too had a black labrador which she of course called

Paddy

Oh the shame.

That is a terrible crime!

My son's 2 black labs are called Digger and Diesel. Just one small typo away from disaster!

That is a real insult to Diggers and Diesels MPN11!