The following is part of the Australian War Memorial disclaimer in Canberra.

"It may also include historically and culturally sensitive images and moving images, sound recordings, words, terms or descriptions; such material does not reflect the Memorial’s viewpoint but rather the social attitudes and circumstances of the period or place in which it was created."


I've always liked that statement because it highlights that the memorial has chosen to reflect history as accurately as possible. You will see racist slurs amongst the exhibits. I'd like to think Switchmonkey is correct and that no one would actually use the name anymore.

Listen to Luther Blissett and John Barnes with their wise words: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...herts-53436824

Let sleeping dogs lie. History cannot be changed. Only what we choose to remember. I read about Nigger and saw the film when I was about 10. He will always be Nigger in my mind, which is where it matters!

If this historical deletion and PC that is running rife continues, call sign Zulu (Battle of Rorke's Drift between the British Army and the Zulus in January 1879, during the Anglo-Zulu War.) will have to be changed to Zoo???

Whatever the dog's name....
The Dog was NOT a Slave trader
The Dog was NOT a Racist
The Dog ate dog food and drank Beer

The Dog deserves the respect of his grave!!!!

Having just done a quick reverse phone number lookup of the surname N****r, there are a few around. Who's going to explain to them that PC requires that they change it lest some snowflake becomes offended?

Totally agree.

SOX80 I hate to put the fire out but the callsign was Blackdog years ago when the VC10 was still flying! Not only that but I vaguely remember 617 having to change the callsign to Blackdog (as opposed to its name) back in the 80's.

There was a rumour at the time that the Squadron had used their original callsign on a deployment to the USA and not surprizingly had caused quite a rumpus leading it to be changed.

The real question is, will going around changing names on memorials, removing statues, etc actually change attitudes and by extension reduce the racism in society in general, or will it just be a load of empty gestures and things stay the same when the 24/7 media with its goldfish attention span has moved on to another subject?

If the latter then it’s all been a waste of time. For me this falls into the second category, it should be left as is as an example of the culture of its time, kept in its proper context, and used to educate people. Removing it also removes the opportunity to educate.

“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”
― George Orwell, 1984

No, I mean the CRC callsign is no longer BlackDog, it was changed because, I assume, BlackDog was deemed potentially offensive. I believe it is now Crowbar.

Over 70 years ago, George Orwell predicted exactly this sort of re-writing history, with facts that don't suit current political dogma being permanently deleted and then even the 'new' facts being deleted again when that dogma changes.

In his book 1984, Winston Smith worked for the Ministry of Truth, constantly updating publications with the 'truth' that is the 'diktat' of the latest dogma.

This current re-writing of history to suite the latest 'diktats' and dogma fits exactly with the tyranny in Orwell's 1984.

If people cannot learn to live with history and learn from it, then tyrannies will be given every opportunity to take away freedom of thought.

And following that, take away all other freedoms.

What were the crews in 617 Squadron (and all of the armed forces at the time) fighting for?

Nope
 

You’re still not convincing me.

Changing a memorial to a dog, on a UK military establishment that had an actually offensive, racist (even several years ago it would have held racist connotations) word written on it is not Orwellian.

Many of the things going on in the world right now can definitely be described in such a manner. I doubt you will ever convince me that changing the gravestone of a dog falls into the same category.

The book shouldn’t be changed, the history books that say the name of GG’s dog shouldn’t be changed, the 1950’s movie shouldn’t be changed (I believe a remake would be correct to come up with a new name) the fact that the code word was the same name shouldn’t be changed but the memorial has been and I think it was the right thing to do.

If the memorial had been on public ground I might have felt differently (although the local council would almost certainly have done the same thing) but the RAF has taken a stand and I think it is the correct one.

I realise I’m barking at the moon and many of you will never change your minds either but it is possible you’re wrong. Just as it possible I am wrong as well.

BV

Bob V, I agree with 99% of what you’ve said in your posts. The 1% that I disagree is where you say that a new film could change the dog’s name. That IS changing history. To me, the dog isn’t an integral part of the story and it can just be ignored or, at the very least, its name doesn’t need to be said. I’ve had friends argue that the loss of his pet had an effect on Gibson’s mindset during the operation and I’ll accept that so, maybe, it needs to be featured. But it can be done carefully without raising its name. As for the code word, how important is that to the telling of the rest of the operation? Again, it can be avoided.

MG
 

That’s fair enough. I get your point about the movie. Glossing over it would probably be the best bet rather than changing it.

If a movie gets made about the Dambusters I would hate for the attention of the worlds media to be focused on the name of a dog rather than the missions.

BV

Don't you think that with all that is currently happening, that it is exactly what would happen. A very small % of the population knew anything of the grave, even fewer actually cared.
Yet now it is front and centre. Any new movie could have easily have omitted the word without causing this erasing of history.

Remember when ISIS were erasing history at Palmyra? Statues, street names, buildings, books,. What's next?

https://www.change.org/p/r-a-f-scamp...Q3MmYyZQ%3D%3D
link here to petition if you feel so inclined I did
David

Yep, a completely equal comparison.

There must be thousands of books on sale worldwide with the word “Nigger” printed In them, some telling the story of slavery. Clearly, we must make It illegal to own one then gather them up and burn them.

The decision to remove and replace the headstone with a false copy is wrong on every level and simply panders to the professionally offended minority of which it seems the RAF’s high-priced help are now members.

Nigger survived for 15 years in a time when political correctness wasn't even invented, a time where the whole country pulled together to fight a common enemy, he was part of hope, that time where the love of a dog kept these brave men from thinking of places where they would most likely meet their deaths even if briefly yet now his name is being pulled apart killed all over again by an enemy just as destructive, political correctness stupidity!

Heard about this in the mid 1980's from somebody I knew at Marham. Reason was Opsec. Also happened to 27 Sqn apparently who used elephant related Call signs.

For trunk calls one presumes....

Jack

The Sqn flew a formation into Upper Heyford using Nigger as the callsign - it caused a bit of a fuss. Not the best decision of that week and from then on it changed to Black Dog.

The dog’s name.
 

Nobody has suggested burning copies of books with the offensive word in them. History will always bear the dog’s name.

Some of you need to ask yourselves why the name of the dog is so important to you. Are you really a warrior for truth and justice?

If the petition were to succeed (which we all know it won’t) all you will have achieved will be for many, many people to think that you are all (and by association many military veterans) racists.

I don’t fling that word around very often and I am not a fan of erasing history but this is one I just don’t get.

Maybe it is not an issue for some of us to discuss. Maybe those of us who were never called that word just don’t understand how demeaning it is and was.

BV

The first action to airbrush the dog’s name from history has just been taken. The Vikings plundered, killed and raped thousands of ancient Britons, yet sensible people are not offended by people of that name.

Bob, no-one asks 'you' to get it. It's our Sqn and our history. And yes, you should be careful insinuating that just because someone doesn't like history being cancelled, or wont pander to social media bullies by taking a knee or whatever else (ffs, even tv presenters now feel the need to wear 'Black Lives Matter' badges when presenting and where are their badges highlighting the attempt at genocide of Uighur Muslims?) that they are racist (just so you don't think too badly of me, I think ALL lives matter, and I wont qualify that because of race/colour/religion/culture etc and neither do I feel the need to parade my beliefs so that others think good of me). That sort of thing is happening enough on Twatter and the others and let's face it, none of us on here know anything like enough about other members to make that kind of call.

I'd also ask why some members find the name of the dog so important too? Are you feeling offended on behalf of others?

But then it's not the name of the dog that was important, it's the dog that was important....that's a big distinction in this case. The dog was important, still is to those current and ex-members of the Sqn, and it had a name. Yes, it is very unfortunate that it had a name that carried disrespectful, hateful connotations, but it was of the time as has been explained so eloquently on here by others. But it was his name. Why wasn't the name so offensive to you all that you petitioned last year to have it changed, or argued that it should be removed the year before, or even last week? You all knew the name. You mostly knew there was grave commemorating him too.

Don't pander to the Woke/Cancel bullying culture that seems to have gripped so many recently.

It was still being used in the 90's, and on detachments to the US.

Blackdog came after that.

Bob V, and with the greatest respect, I assume you are familiar with the expression "the thin end of the wedge"?

I love how threads such as this arise such angst on PPRUNE, whereas genuine capability threads and policy decisions arise far less interest.....

It may well be, that the demise of the dog altered Gibson’s mindset. That is about as easy to prove as Cognitive Impairment. The part the dog played is but an anecdote (imagine the significance, or lack of, if it wasn’t knocked over), and at present distracts from the true story of the vision of one man (Wallis), the Leadership of another (Gibson), and the courage and dedication of many (Aircrew and supporting units).

Lastly, it’s pretty easy to see who is able to empathise with some other humans, or put themselves in other shoes.

Well said and I totally agree

Dave - can you please tel us what you mean by this? What terrible future do you for see?? people having to rename their cats perhaps??

As a Nigel, I would be honoured!

As has been said, if it was your Sqn history that was being erased, your opinion would be important.

The arrogance of that statement is astounding.

Have they banned the whole story of Chastise and the subsequent history of 617? If that’s the case, I take back all I’ve said and I’m triggered.

JAJ
 

I understand how Sqn history and loyalty works. I am also an avid reader of all VC exploits and have undying respect for all who have earned it. Indeed as a past member of 6 Sqn and 419 Sqn I know what it is like to serve on a Sqn who can boast a VC among their alumni.

I have total respect for Gibson and fully respect his right to have called his dog whatever he wanted. My opinion of him is not changed by his choice of canine epithets. My opinion of you for standing up for what you believe in is also unchanged (though some people may well form a different opinion).

I just cannot abide the N word and all it stands for in the modern era. I honestly do not think a memorial plaque with that word on it belongs on an RAF station in 2020. It should live in a museum, where it can be viewed in a better context and contribute to a wider discussion.

I realise we will never agree on the matter but, just as I promise not to view you as a racist, please don’t see me as a modern luvvie, snowflake who wants to erase history. Far from it. But I draw the line at the N word in this context.

BV

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....32cd24e1b.jpeg
If I understand it correctly these are before and after photos of the gravestone. I’ve taken them from earlier posts so I can’t vouch for their authenticity.

The fact that the word was being used as a C/S in the 90's, but particularly on CONUS shows a lack of understanding. For the record, I didn't get it either (I just knew it was a naughty word, not to be said) until I moved to the US and understood the deep hurt inflicted across multiple generations, and the continued lack of social equality.

Have a great day!

Certainly Asturias. The dog's name has been deemed offensive by some and airbrushed from history. Its name is a fact. Not necessarily hugely relevant or pertinent, but a fact nevertheless. Now, imagine that in five years time someone decides that the raid was a war crime, and henceforth it will be recorded as such. You OK with that? Then Gibson's VC is removed because he committed a war crime. You OK with that? After all, what's worse? Deliberately setting out with the intent to drown hundreds of men, women and children, or a dog's name? Who decides? You? Me? Bob V? Get it now? Some of you will be saying "its not the same" - but it is. It's just a question of degrees. Those who reference 1984 and 'cancel culture' are spot on, IMHO.

Re the before and after photo
 

What I’m trying to illustrate that the gravestone was not vandalised at all. The new one, assuming that the one shown is that on the right, has the same text as previously. Only the name of the dog has been omitted. Does that qualify as rewriting history? All this outrage over a minor change that in my opinion was quite sensible given the evolving political climate.

Bing and Tashengurt made a very good point that it would be unacceptable for a serving member of the RAF especially from an ethnic minority to be faced with such a racially abusive word. Also, like Bob V I just find it unacceptable and insulting.

One last point I’d like to make is that it’s disingenuous to suggest that this word has only become unacceptable recently in the light of pc or woke culture. I first heard the name of the name of the dog probably in the late seventies from my late father. He was Vulcan ground crew on 230 OCU in the fifties so was well aware of the history of 617 squadron. He was quite clear to me that it was highly insulting to use that word. There you go, a lesson in treating your fellow men and women with a modicum of decency and respect from someone who would now be 86.

BBK