Balls - we are nothing like them. Nowhere near.

At least Mutley had one to wear. Many juniors will have multiple six monthers in sandy or kebaby places on operations (SHADER) and all that that entails. And nothing to show for it.

Jim30 hits the nail on the head - leaders, grow some and make a decision.

Nil Desperandum! It took some 50 years for service in the Suez Canal Zone 1951-54 to be rewarded with a medal. After a long campaign the Government finally saw the light in 2003. :ok:

Rumour control - well this is a rumour site - says work is being done on a SHADER gong, but there are disagreements over several areas such as whether you have to have been in Iraq or Syria or have flown over it, or do places like Jordan & Kuwait count as well. And if you go for a broader JOA award, do ground crew and support staff in places like Cyprus get it, and what about RPAS crews at Waddington etc etc etc. If that's correct, and there are substantial differences I can see it taking a while to reach agreement.

Melchy, you and I know those are merely the variables around which a reasonable set of criteria, based on appropriate merit towards the OP, can be declared. ;) However, going on the despicable way that virtually all retired Officers were treated by the criteria for the new LSGC medal, you can bet that the qualifying dates for SHADER will start from 1 APR 17, due to financial constraints! :yuk: :yuk: :mad:

OAP

There is a precedent with the SAM. If you went operational south of ASI, you got a rosette. If you stayed on ASI, medal only. Surely not that difficult to set a rosette trip line?

Also as per the OSM (Afghanistan) where service in country got you a clasp whilst service outside of Afghanistan just got you the medal.

Onceapilot,

I must confess that frankly the way we do medals is an utter mystery, that seems to defy common sense in the name of who knows what. All I can think is that money, politics and inter-service rivalry are all equal, or possibly greater, considerations than the concepts of risk and rigour. I've always said I thought we should ease up a little on our medals policy. In the current climate where CO's have increasingly limited authority to run their units as they see fit and where finance is primus inter pares, medals assume a potentially increased importance in recognising individual's efforts in a system that seems set up to make life as hard as possible.

I think you are quite right Melchy. Personally, I believe the RAF has been very poor at fighting for appropriate awards for its personnel. As for not awarding the LSGC to pre-2014 retirees on the basis of "cost, too-difficult" and "its a new award"... :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

OAP

As with the Cyprus 1963-4 GSM, awarded 2016, 51 years after the event.

Never heard of any 'campaign' for it, it took me completely by surprise.

I know that when it comes to staff work, an efficient staff officer will plagiarise previously successful work, but I have to say what I find really irritating in the case of medals is that almost every piece of work starts with the Churchillian quote on medals casting shadows as well as glittering. It's trite and it strikes me as a having been adopted as the default line to take when its all just too difficult and the criteria is set to ensure the lowest possible cost and effort to recognise service. You just know that any medals policy that starts with that is going to be contentious, vice any policy that they think will fly being rolled out with great fanfare about 'HM being pleased to .... '.

So Ebola was good enough but no an Op that has seen many individuals flitting between the ME and the UK for nearly 4 years? Utter bollax leadership from Senior Officers.

Questions about risk and rigour? Well, there was enough rigour on my last interaction that I shall not be doing another one. I had nothing left to give after 6 months.

Again, you are correct. There is an unspoken limitation on awards. Commanders soon know that it is useless to try and staff all deserving awards. I have seen whole campaigns where people within my sphere of flying operations never saw any recognition beyond the general "gong". It must be said that few service personnel receive recognition for their skill and bravery. There have been some high awards but, in my experience, the majority of skill and bravery went unrecognised by high command of the RAF. :* Just my opinion.

OAP

Its the same for KIPION where a substantial number of the RN MCMV force are onto their 5,6,7th plus tour in as many years in Bahrain, working in a very challenging JOA. A medal fr this specific deployment would go a very long way to assisting with goodwill in this very stretched and gapped pool of manpower.

'Ah, but it'll be too expensive - we are in austerity you know. Plus, it'll never fly with the medals committee in terms of risk and rigour as they probably haven't been living in a puddle, under fire, and in range of DPRK or Iranian ballistic missiles, sustained only by biscuits brown whilst working 25 hours a day having each lost at least one internal organ all the while performing secondary duties during the half hour they get off once every second month. And in any case, it's what they get paid for. What more do they want?' said an unnamed MOD spokesman dashing off to lunch at his club on Friday afternoon.

Binning the divisive Op Allowance would cover it.

BYO, you have to buy your own miniatures. I think you have to pay for medal mounting too. The actual cost, looking at commercial prices is not too expensive.

Pare it back to free issue for men, purchase by officers (as they do for uniform) and for retirees of all ranks.

You know why the Op Allowance is there? It is a UK Poli's ploy to bury the fact that Uncle Sams servicemen work income tax-free on Ops. The UK answer to that was an OA rate that just about covered a very junior servicemans tax level. This allows gob****e UK Polis to BS their way out of that criticism and, they have worked to make OA as limited as possible ever since. :mad:

OAP

gijoe.

As with your earlier post why would the answer be to stop certain people from getting a good deal? In this case an Op Allowance. Surely the answer is not to stop it for the few but to pay it to everyone?

It's the same with the medals we are discussing. Be it an LS for officers or a Shader medal. I would rather too many people got one than worry about a few hangers on getting one that are not truly deserving. There are ways to distinguish between those that truly operated in harms way and those that fulfilled a support role.

Whoever says we are becoming like the Americans is wrong but there must be a happy medium somewhere. Having just returned from a business trip to the US they leave us in the dirt when it comes to treating veterans. Is it really right that we can have people turning up to a rememberance service with nothing but a unit tie to show for decades of service?

I would not wish to devalue any medals that have been earned with blood sweat and tears. However, when I hear of people denigrating the efforts of others with less bling than themselves it makes me think very poorly of them. Any time someone on here refers to a Cold War warrior I think they come across as a total knob.

Timing is everything in the military. Anything from how you are streamed out of EFT to what Ops you partake in is often beyond an individuals control. I don't think it is too much to ask that anyone who has served should have something to pin to their blazer in November.

If you wish to believe that there are chinless wonders out there who actively avoid Ops then that's up to you. If people have no medals I would suggest it's more an accident of timing than personal preference.

Once again this is all just my opinion and you are welcome to disagree.

BV

BV, you have struck a chord!

I served for nearly 28 years and retired bare chested. A "Cold War Warrior" - yes - but I was proud to do what was necessary for all those years. Through no design of my own I was serving in MoD London during the two wars on my watch: Falklands and GW1.

Until recently I wasn't at all bothered by the lack of a "gong". However, I am now converted to your view that It would be appropriate for me to have something to pin on my lapel when I attend the local war memorial in November - and also a little memento for my boys, when I drop off my perch, to show their Dad did a bit of service.

At the end of the day, if it is now accepted that officer service is deserving of a LSGC gong then when the LS occurred should be irrelevant n'est ce pas?

Surely the point of Remembrance Sunday is to remember the dead? Not to try and tell everyone you used to be in the military. If you are that concerned that people know about your past, you have a veterans badge.

All medals come with qualifying criteria and someone, somewhere, always dips out. Where do you draw the line? The argument that it should be given to everyone could apply to every coronation and Jubilee medal ever issued.

Those advocating the issuing of a LS medal to retired officers, from what year would you count qualifying service? Or would you issue it to all officers who have ever served in the armed forces?

XFC

I get where you are coming from regarding the size of the problem (ie. cost) and I also understand where those that have retired are coming from (ie. disappointment). So as ever, the compromise might be for the MoD to issue a certificate of entitlement to veterans and then, of they so wish, they can purchase one at their own expense?

It costs £25 for one engraved from here:
The Mess Dress

Then it has cost the MoD very little and to the veteran they can prove entitlement and not end up in the Walter Mitty Hunters' Club gallery!

Simples

LJ

In fact, thinking about it, the already issued RAF 'Valedictory Certificate', or previous to 2007 teh 'Valedictory Letter', should show that entitlement and so there would be no need to issue anything - just change the policy to include this. It would need to prove the same length of qualifying service.

No cost to MoD, entitlement officially given to veterans and if they wish they may purchase and wear the 'Long Gong' as Officers like those that are currently serving.

LJ

XFC
Welcome to the site. Your post raises a few simplistic points that have been covered many times. However, if this really is your first post here, you might consider doing some background work before typing! ;)

OAP

Leon

I think this has been proposed here and, I wrote along the same lines to the Sec of State for Defence last year. However, the proposal was rebuffed due to the "cost" and the falsehood that the medal is a "new" one, designed for "going forward". Wankers!

OAP

Actually I find they are a good point of contact at these affairs. At a service at the Bomber Command memorial in Green Park I noticed an old gent with a Military Cross at the front of his row. I commented on it and learned that he had won it at Kohima, the scene of some of the most savage hand to hand fighting in the whole war in the Far East. On another occasion. seeing a chap with the South Atlantic Medal I learned that he had been on one of the ships which were lost in the Falklands War.

Mind you nobody has ever asked me to relate my war experiences in Aden when they see my solitary South Arabia GSM. Good job too, as I have never been any good at making up stories!

Thank you for the patronising tone.

I have read the thread and seen both sides of the argument, with a nice little segue into the mess that is Op SHADER recognition.

A couple of replies have given good ideas on how retired officers could prove entitlement but I have yet to see anyone suggest a better set of qualifying criteria. Do you open up eligibility for all officers who have ever served or put some sort of time limit on it?

Mind you nobody has ever asked me to relate my war experiences in Aden when they see my solitary South Arabia GSM. Good job too, as I have never been any good at making up stories!
A superb Flight Sergeant I had the privilege of working with, was asked by one of the lads as to how he had got one peculiar medal ribbon.

"Cowering in a trench boy , singing war songs!"

Above was all about the time of the 1977 Silver Jubilee Medal.By the time it got down to my unit level in RAFG there was one medal left of the allocation. As a Flt Lt. I was given the task of allocating it. The strong hint was given ,by my unit C.O. that it would be in my interests(1369 and all that) to suggest him " as representing the unit" .Yeah Sure,
In the event I overheard said Ft Sgt above stating, in the crew bar,that the the medal was a worthless waste of time and therefore a total embarrassment to any recipient.
Guess who got it !

LS&GC Medal Eligibility

In his post No 62 on this thread, Leon suggested that a way forward might be for the MOD to issue a certificate to veterans who satisfied all of the criteria relating to the award of the appropriate Long Service and Good Conduct Medal (LS&GC Medal) so that they could, if they wished, purchase one at their own expense, saving the Government from much of the costs.

At present, JSP (Joint Service Publication) 761 Part 1 (V5.0 Oct 16) prescribes in paragraph 5B.01 subparagraph c. "Officers who left the Regular Forces prior to 29 July 2014 are ineligible for the medal". In order that Leon's suggestion might become a viable solution, this subparagraph will have to be removed and replaced - so what would then be a suitable alternative? Presumably, above all else the need would be to preserve the 'worth' of the medal in the eyes of all recipients past, present and future by retaining the existing Qualifying Conduct and Service requirements (paragraphs 5B.02 and 5B.04 respectively, 5B.03 being 'Reserved'), yet with subparagraph c. amended to accommodate those Regular Service officers who have already retired.

The proposal to allow retired RS officers to purchase the appropriate LS&GC Medal might be challenged by those who value the fact that it should be awarded by HM The Queen in a manner similar to all other official medals, and that to obtain one by other means could run counter to established practice. Whilst I could understand this objection, I would point out that there is nothing new about individuals who believe they are entitled to a medal applying for it by submitting the MOD Medal Application Form: this can be used by those applying on their own behalf, on behalf of relatives who are still alive, and for those who are deceased. If successful, then entitlement to the medal is affirmed and in due could it is made available.

So what would be so different about receiving a statement of entitlement that would allow the claimant to purchase the medal and then wear it in full compliance with the regulations? I understand that it is not uncommon for persons who have already received medals from purchasing duplicates that they then display and wear whilst the originals are kept in a safe place and worn only on special occasions. This process could just as easily be followed to obtain an 'original' - once entitled to do so. From my perspective, the critical point is entitlement to wear this medal, for however much I might feel entitled but not possess such entitlement, I would never purchase and wear it unless so entitled, for that would be not only quite improper but also in breach of regulations.

Acceptance of these proposals by the Government should overcome the sense of grievance felt by many who consider that they have missed out unfairly by the ineligibility clause, yet facilitate a solution at minimal expense to public coffers. Of course, many potential claimants might never wish to claim an entitlement to the appropriate LS&GC Medal, and the relatives of those who might have deserved it but are now deceased might not have an interest in obtaining one, which means that the burden of extra work to be undertaken by the Medal Office might not be excessive, and costs contained accordingly.

If the stark ineligibility clause were to be removed, then perhaps it might be replaced by something along the lines of, "Officers who left the Regular Forces before 29 July 2014 are ineligible for the automatic award of the medal. Those who retired before this date and satisfy all other relevant criteria may request a statement of entitlement that will allow them to purchase this medal at their own expense and wear it on suitable occasions."

Just to restate what this is all about: nothing about LS&GC Medals (I include all three versions in this description) addressed in the JSP are 'new', save that the Government took steps to rectify the anomaly by which RS officers had been denied medallic recognition of their voluntary, long and honourable service to their Queen and Country (nothing whatsoever to do with campaigns or risk and rigour). And yet the Government specified a date, arbitrarily it would seem, that excluded many who could claim to have deserved it on equitable terms in former years. My wish and that of others, it is now clear, is that a way should be found to overcome this barrier.

Once a new Government has been formed I have every intention of bringing my arguments to the notice of those who might bring about change and rectify this yet-to-be-completed anomaly. (I had written to the Minister of State in July 2015 before the amendment to the JSP was published, but a fresh approach to a new Government might be fruitful.) I shall also suggest that in addition to taking advice on this matter from Very Senior Officers in the Armed Forces who, having already qualified for medals, might not so easily understand the sentiments and articulate the views of those of us who have no medallic recognition from our Nation, any advisory committee should include representatives from the latter group.

One can but try!

O.K. . I got a GSM in 1975 .Hoots of laughter among the old hands as having it being gained on a home tour. (N.I.) Indeed, I know of some of my compatriots who never put it up in order to avoid any awkward questions ,since we weren't there then officially as RAF(Imint) .
Long Service and Good Conduct medals were, at that time, solely the prerogative of S.N.C.O's. some of whom took them down on being commissioned, for reasons that I still have issues with.
I served in a few places post that time , watching other Nations pinning medals on themselves, and being promised that ours were "in the pipeline" (e.g. Turkey during "Provide Comfort" post GW1) . All in all "so what"? .
To those who wish to parade themselves with medals in memory of the fallen , fine. I won't comment further.

Nugget90

An excellent reply!

Sometimes, one cannot fathom the brick wall, except that saving £1 seems to be worth wasting £10, according to some Polis. :mad:

OAP

Haraka
I am confused by your postings. Do you have an ambivalent opinion of Military awards or do you think, as I do, that it is important that they should be as fair as possible criteria?

OAP

100% with Nugget90 ...

TTN, on point of contact I agree. A veteran's badge says one thing, even a VRT qualify. A LS&GC medal says something else such as Service. On its own another message. It used to denote an OR, now no longer. With a jubilee medal, yet another.

They all serve as a point of reference at a gathering.

At Runnymede i spotted an Air Gunner Association badge on a car. What a tale that Vet had together with a photo album. At the club a unit tie opened up another story - ASW Wellingtons in the Gulf of Aden. An Arctic Star led to the 151 Sqn in Russia and he was subsequently Air attaché in Moscow.

Few Vets are Harrier pilots but are happy to tell a tale to anyone genuinely interested.

Gongs are important.

We had a flt lt at a certain Area Radar Unit who had a couple of WW2 service medals (NDM and Victory?). He was teased about his apparent age, as his skin colour and dark curly hair gave no such indication. He removed the ribbons and never was seen wearing them again. Nickname was "G***t Noir" to avoid confusion with his pale-skinned colleague with the same surname who was called G**** Blanc".

I suspect I was not the only one who felt a subsequent twinge of guilt about the teasing. :(

OAP]
Thank you for reading my posts.
Medals and Citations are part of the military system. It should be fair.
Unfortunately this is not the case when overriding higher level considerations come in to play.

Haraka

Cheers!:ok:

OAP

Spot on - so in answer to Bob V's point, it should be paid to all of those filling an op PID. Not the selective few who are geographically positioned in the place that has been deemed worthy. All should get it or none - in its current form it is divisive. There are places that get the tick that are seriously 'not dangerous' and very comfortable. And given it was to parallel the US model it is missing the mark by miles.

The LS for officers is not needed. The funding would be better spent on recognising the lengthy time away on ops that more and more personnel are picking up - yet unrecognised. And that would probably convince juniors to stay in longer - some are questioning what this ops thing is all about if it is not recognised with a medal or op allowance.

Bob - I don't think I called anyone a chinless wonder - I'll leave that task to the digusting creature Peter Mandelson and his comments on the Household Division - but there are plenty around who swerve every 6 monther that comes up citing health or family reasons or...running a business!

Loads.

G

Me too. It seems the best way to satisfy both parties during these austere times that we live in. For officers to purchase things outside of issue is not that unusual - leather jackets and forage caps come immediately to mind.

OK, to make your point, apart from the level of payment, give succinct examples where the mark is missed and is divisive, compared to Uncle Sam.

OAP