Carlisle floods
Whilst our sympathies are very much for the flood victims, I wonder what Pruners think of the Government using our Army to clean the streets around Carlisle football stadium? I know many soldiers were keen to go to Afghanistan to fight, but I wonder what their thoughts are cleaning the streets over Christmas?
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There is a long tradition of the military pitching in and helping the civil authorities in situations like these, both at home and abroad. If it was a case of the local population sitting back and doing nothing while the military did all the work I could see an objection, but I have friends who have been flooded out (they live near Brunton Park) and they tell me that everyone, service and civilian, has been working hard to try and get the mess cleared up. At least the good people of Carlisle arent going to be attempting to blow the troops up as they go about their work!
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Sharpend.....to be honest, I'm not impressed in the slightest......and I can only go on what I saw on tv so I won't pretend to have first hand knowledge of the situation up there.........but I can speak with SOME first hand experience. I thought they were inadequately equipped.....their PPE was woeful.......what training do they have? It's not always what you can see that's gonna get you.....there's a lot going on UNDER the water that's gonna bite you on the arse!!!! The other services will have been trained and equipped appropriately.......and paid overtime (I have no issue with that) I know that because it's what I used to do.
To me, it seemed like another case of the government using the armed forces.....singing their praises.......milking the photo opportunities and sound bites, but ultimately, they'll forget about all that when it comes to budget cuts. I've seen things from both sides and I'm afraid I think successive governments find it too easy to use and then discard our forces personnel......disgraceful actually. MD |
Slightly biased here as my family comes from Carlisle, my sister and my brothers sons families live in Cockermouth, my other sister and brother and their families live in Carlisle.
You ask about using the military to do this, well why not, remember the tanker strikes, the floods in Wells Next to the Sea, the fireman so strikes, need I go on, the military were used in all of those, they are after all a large reserve of army manpower available to the Government who when not fighting a war are really just in training mode. |
@ mopardave ... concur on the PPE and training. Our niece is a Special Rescue firefighter, based in Liverpool. Her team deployed to Carlisle at VERY short notice, but at least had all the appropriate kit and training. I have been sent a photo of her there, inside a house with water up to her chest, using an inflatable stretcher for rescue work.
Troops wading around in sewage in DPM isn't a pretty sight, but at least they provided some much-needed manpower. |
MPN11.......that's the kind of thing I used to do. Aside from the obvious, at my station, most of us were water rescue technicians. I was well trained and well equipped......and I loved the variety.....even on a freezing cold winter night searching for someone who'd fallen into a river or canal......and we did have them. I remember being deployed to a Yorkshire mill town some years ago........prior to our specialist training......searching, sometimes chest deep in cold contaminated water, wearing fire kit......some of the lads went home and brought their own waders in.....a health and safety minefield. Anyway, we cracked on and got the job done......it was surreal.....some hours into the incident, I turned around, chest deep in all the filth, to see an ornate rowing boat, complete with a carved swan on the bow......provided by the parks and leisure division of the local council.....crewed by some rather self conscious firefighters.......like I said, surreal. I learned a lot about hazards under the surface that day!!!
My daughter is a junior doctor up there Nutloose......I think it's a nice town and my heart went out to all those who've had Christmas ruined. I hope your family were ok? A massive thumbs up to everyone from me.......but the government, nah sorry, they don't understand the concept of loyalty! MD |
Been there, done it and got the t-shirt, twice....
Once in the late 70's with Devon & Cornwall in that sleepy hollow know as Newton Abbott. IIRC, we all got very wet, confirmed that the Ford Escort Mk 2's we used as Panda's had a zero wading capability and the canteen ran out of pies on the second day. Being the late 70's there was very little H&S 'issues' every one just mucked in to get the job done, local farmers rocked up with tractors and trailers, fire brigade with pumps, even a sally army tea van! Next time was in York, late 90's while at 34 Fd Hosp (now that was a different posting for a RE :rolleyes:) As per and in keeping with the units admin at the time there was zero organisation with the guys n gals initially being sent into York centre to help with the defences or was it to fill sandbags, hundreds and hundreds of sandbags... or was it millions? Cant remember but suffice to say it was a lot... Anyway we got to give the medics a crash course on how to build a sandbag wall and defences were put in place. A few hours into the task it was sort of mentioned that a brew would be nice and when was the RQ turning up with the Hotboxes (remember those? just like the horror box but bigger) with lunch in. As it was one of the units cooks that asked the question and the rest of his mates were with him..... :ok: Well, it rained, the river did what rivers do and just went past the sandbags and it flooded.... York Council then had zillions of wet sandbags to pick up :ugh: |
Helping the locals sort out a natural calamity like this is hardly "cleaning the streets" sharpend, particularly when other agencies not to mention locals and private contractors, many unpaid, are at full stretch. I don't follow that whether soldiers are "keen to fight in Afganistan" or not has anything to do with it (that ones over, you may have noticed). They're being paid by the government(unlike many others helping) and most are keen to be doing something with a visible and tangible public benefit.
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Helping the locals sort out a natural calamity like this is hardly "cleaning the streets" sharpend, particularly when other agencies not to mention locals and private contractors, many unpaid, are at full stretch. I don't follow that whether soldiers are "keen to fight in Afganistan" or not has anything to do with it (that ones over, you may have noticed). They're being paid by the government(unlike many others helping) and most are keen to be doing something with a visible and tangible public benefit. On a slightly different note, someone somewhere knew there was a risk of this happening, gambled and lost. It may be that with the limited resources available they had made the best calls, but will there ever be a time when bureaucrats are actually properly called to account and disciplinary proceedings taken including and up to court action. I know if I make a judgement and things go wrong I will be held to account and will have to explain why I chose the actions I did. It appears some public sector workers are beyond reproach. Meek lines from senior management saying lessons will be learnt, followed by people taking early retirement to avoid disciplinary action are simply not good enough. Perhaps if the senior management were held accountable in the first instance(we need an offence of wasting public money), they would take more interest in those underneath them and quickly weed out the feckless before poor decisions are made? |
I'm right with you about being called to account, Vernon. That doesn't seem to figure in the public sector anywhere these days, whether we're talking baby P or flood defences. But even with unlimited money (where from, ...defence budget??) it may not always be enough. Look at the billions spent on sea defences in Japan...And when it does i don't feel it's too outrageous to expect the services to show their qualities this way.
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Could it be that someone in these flood-prone areas already has done some rough sums and figured out that in the long run it's much cheaper to just reimburse (barely) people for the occasional flood damage than it would be to erect proper defences to ensure that the occasional floods didn't happen?
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British Armed Forces have 7 roles:
- defending the UK and its overseas territories - providing strategic intelligence - providing nuclear deterrence - supporting civil emergency organisations in times of crisis - defending our interests by projecting power strategically and through expeditionary interventions - providing a defence contribution to UK influence - providing security for stabilisation We were even taught about "Aid to the civil power" during officer training. It's a legitimate role which is good for the country when required and benefits the Forces in the public view. I don't think I've ever heard many complaints from the guys when tasked with such things - on the contrary, normally more than enough volunteers; and that's down to the sort of people that want to be in the military. Is anyone suggesting that's all changed? |
Could it be that someone in these flood-prone areas already has done some rough sums and figured out that in the long run it's much cheaper to just reimburse (barely) people for the occasional flood damage than it would be to erect proper defences to ensure that the occasional floods didn't happen? Bitts park BTW always flooded all the years I lived there, though some areas of the City would be difficult to defend against flooding, due to the likes of where the Caldew joins the Eden and the built up area around that being in close proximity to the river with few opportunities to build defences. The problem with flood defences though is they simply shift the problem from one area to another. |
Hmm - "Aid to the Civil Power". In my day ISTR we were taught to Read the Riot Act , unfurl the "Disperse or we shoot" banner, and if you fired it was "aimed shots at the ringleader(s)"
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Lucky weren't there, Wander. I doubt aimed shots at the locals would have gone down very well in Carlisle. :ok:
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Fair enough, but if it is all hands to the pumps(excuse the pun) then I would expect the councils etc to grab all available manpower to help, including office workers. Humping and dumping is not a skilled job, what is needed is numbers. And if I'm honest, on reflection I have to agree with her. I know what my answer would be if I was an office worker with the local council and I was given some PPE and told to report for humping and dumping duties. |
So, we send troops to help out the residents of Cumbria, as we have before in Humberside, York, Devon, Somerset, Thames flood plain, etc, etc.
Money comes from the various budgets from 'our' tax; have we heard anything about the UK being given money from other countries as part of a rescue package?? No. We, as the UK, as quick to send money abroad to help areas under flood, suffering from earthquakes, etc, but when was the last time we received funding in return. Maybe Mr Cameron should take this up with the EU; we'll pay into the fund as long as we get funding back and use this as an example......... |
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Originally Posted by Wander00
(Post 9210064)
Hmm - "Aid to the Civil Power". In my day ISTR we were taught to Read the Riot Act , unfurl the "Disperse or we shoot" banner, and if you fired it was "aimed shots at the ringleader(s)"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mili...il_Authorities |
One of the paper and presentation exercises I did at OASC 31 years ago (to the week, even!) involved flood control. If I remember correctly, it involved a lot of calculating the volume and quantity of sandbags, and abusing the hospitality of the local WI.
Not a lot changes, does it? All the best and much respect to those aiding the civil power at the moment. |
FinelyChopped
I too was at OASC in December 1984.....it may well have been this week but I'd have to check on that! Mine involved a football team and a defective coach! I was beaten by the coach and ended up swimming in flood water (among other things) for a living! Hope you faired better? MD:ok:
Originally Posted by FinelyChopped
(Post 9210448)
One of the paper and presentation exercises I did at OASC 31 years ago (to the week, even!) involved flood control. If I remember correctly, it involved a lot of calculating the volume and quantity of sandbags, and abusing the hospitality of the local WI.
Not a lot changes, does it? All the best and much respect to those aiding the civil power at the moment. |
From nutloose's link
Bail-outs are not just without a treaty base but are expressly prohibited by article 125. Best not to read the treaty then, perhaps. So, hit by widespread flooding and a clean-up costing the earth, Britain is entitled to EU financial assistance under article 122. Unlike bail-out money it would be unconditional, involving no union control. |
A week later its not even in the London-centric news. And the troops are like "COBRA" - a simple way, a sound-bite even to make as though the Govt. are really on the case.
The military had a short term visual, very little practical help affect but at some risk to themselves - I to noticed they were trudging around in filthy water with totally inappropriate or non existent PPE or training. Risk of illness and disease must be significantly higher for them especially if they are in area for long period. The PBI's lot in life. And now its all forgotten, really. But then again I don't rate this Government one single IOTA anyway. Not to tackle serious issues. From handling floods or planning for flooding, to Heathrow airport expansion, to limiting immigration, to involvement in foreign wars they just keep on ******* it up. |
But then again I don't rate this Government one single IOTA anyway. Not to tackle serious issues. From handling floods or planning for flooding, to Heathrow airport expansion, to limiting immigration, to involvement in foreign wars they just keep on ******* it up. |
Originally Posted by Hangarshuffle
I to noticed they were trudging around in filthy water with totally inappropriate or non existent PPE or training.
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I did Op GIRAFFE in 2010 with a Lynx for the floods then. Weekend work, no stress. No civil equivalent, no police callsign.
The police were awesome, very accommodating and receptive. Whats the big fuss....help people. |
Whats the big fuss....help people. a fantastic and public spirited effort by all involved!! MD |
OP, every member of the Armed Forces that I have been privileged to meet, signed the dotted line because they love this country and they wanted to serve her and her people. This is their job, they do it tirelessly and to perfection with what they have, whether it's on Operations overseas or rescuing UK civilians in a time of crisis. I for one am immensely proud of all of them - lets all get behind them! :)
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I think it's more valid and honourable than fighting illegal wars for corporations/US presidents etc God forbid any soldiers were to die cleaning the streets of Carlisle, but at least it would have been for something worthy, unlike Afghanistan or Iraq which was a total waste of military life, civilian life, military family suffering, time & money.
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God forbid any soldiers were to die cleaning the streets of Carlisle |
Wonder if he managed to shoot his muck before arrest???
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I think it's time we got our own house in order and halted overseas flood defence funding until ours is sorted!
Cash Spent On Tackling Climate Change Abroad Is Double Amount Spent On UK Flood Defences | The Global Warming Policy Forum (GWPF) |
"but the plods managed to swerve and avoid forcing the issue"
Its a wonder that it didn't loosen his nuts! |
Anyone posting on this thread actually live in (or near) Carlisle? My daughter does and is hugely grateful for any, and all, help that that has come to their aid. News crews have been a pain, often getting in the way and holding up even basic clean ups. As a service brat married to a serving RAF man she is proud of the all the service contributions to their plight. Now if they could just get the Sainsbury's Christmas deliveries sorted (so I can have my crimbo dinner) things will start to look up.
PM |
I originate from Carlisle, I go home when I can, my sister and her husband, my brother and his kids and my other Sister and her family all live in Carlisle, Cockermouth and Whitehaven, plus a myriad of other family members, does that count?
Just heave a bucket of mud or water over the TV presenter, they will soon move on |
As I understand it, following the last lot of firemen's strikes, the laws regarding the use of Service personnel for MACA tasks was changed so that local authorites now have to pay MOD for the support provided. This was to ensure that local authorities had plans in place for disaster relief that were a little more in-depth than 'get some soldiers to do it' which had previously been the case in some areas. MACA is now a wpn of last resort due to the cost.
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Yes, I'd heard that too. But I'm always a sceptical about this business of paying for military involvement. The guys doing the work are already employed and paid for, so barring some overheads it's hard to see the justification for the costs. If the MoD deliberately employed extra people for MACP, then there would be a case, but it's just a case of diverting them from primary tasks to carry out a different, stated, military role. Yes, other things don't get done straight away, but we're not talking thousands of man-hours here.
I wonder what rate the MoD charge. I'm guessing it's not just transportation, food and accommodation. |
C'mon JSF with posts like this:
OP, every member of the Armed Forces that I have been privileged to meet, signed the dotted line because they love this country and they wanted to serve her and her people. This is their job, they do it tirelessly and to perfection with what they have, whether it's on Operations overseas or rescuing UK civilians in a time of crisis. I for one am immensely proud of all of them - lets all get behind them! Where do I claim my £5? :suspect: S-D |
NutLoose:Just heave a bucket of mud or water over the TV presenter, they will soon move on.
She told then to shift or lift, they shifted. PM |
Whatever the Army do, I wish them well. Mostly sound people doing their level best.Lashing down tonight, watching NUFC on the TV, hope the floods don't return.
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