Glenridding
 

The trees removed from the area around greenside mine may have contributed to the floods.

For those having doubts about how those involved feel about the part they're playing, their equipment or the value of the work they have been doing, have a watch...

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10156325677365615

Inappropriate use of the military? I think not.

Tynedale had a much smaller (but nevertheless intrusive) flood over the 5th-7th December weekend.

We received an immediate offer of help from the local RHA army barracks, however, due to 'red tape' (the army needed to be formally invited by the County Council - who were concerned about them not wearing the appropriate PPE) they didn't arrive immediately.
The Colonel later explained that they were available for 'immediate' relief response, though not for subsequent non-immediate tasking.

It is fair to say that the response from the Police, Fire Brigade and the County Council was beyond reproach and adequate (they all mobilised resources from other regions of the county to action the rescue and clear up).

Watching the news from very afar ( I work and obviously live abroad for most of the year), I rely upon the UK media to keep me updated (which in itself isn't ideal). But it seems a terrible situation. The people on TV from Carlisle and Appleby and all - are they being re-housed>? Are camps being set up for them? Where are they living?
Also, I actually agree that the troops involved should have correct and adequate PPE for the task before they start - that said getting them involved with the UK public in time of need shows how much they are still of the people, and with the people - (in contrast to so many others in public life). An important point, that and one which I admit I had missed.
More storms forecast for Boxing day.

At this rate wouldn't houseboats be a good idea for Cumbria :(

York partly obliterated by water now. What next? Hope the rain shifts to the south, especially London. Chequers, 10 Downing Street would be better..

You reap what you sow, underinvestment by the Governments of this country over decades has brought this about, that and greed of developers who in search of a quick buck built on floodplains thus compounding the issues both on those developments and elsewhere down stream.

Sorry, Nutloose but with water levels some places 5 m higher than normal, even had the money fairy funded the most extravagant defences, many would likely by now have proved inadequate. So, no, I don't agree that this is time for a knee jerk blame-the-govt session...rather, to say a big thank you to the servicemen and others who are most usefully -and correctly -being deployed to help.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/feb/11/uk-floods-government-got-grip-minister.


The prime minister, who returned to the flooded West Country on Monday, was said to be exasperated by the communities secretary, Eric Pickles, who attacked the competence of the EA on Sunday and apologised for the policy decisions taken by the environment secretary, Owen Paterson, who is recuperating from eye surgery.

Cameron is continuing his tour of flood-hit areas of the south-west on Tuesday while thousands of properties in the Thames Valley are at risk of flooding on Wednesday.

Amid anger about the speed of the response to the crisis, Hammond told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "The government has got a grip on this. The emergency services are in the lead and they are properly organised, the military have been mobilised to provide additional support [and] additional money has been available, equipment has been brought in …

"We're dealing with an enormous force of nature here, vast quantities of water and an unprecedented weather pattern."

Asked whether he backs Lord Smith, the head of the EA, Hammond said: "This is not the time for recriminations or for discussions of who did what when. We can do that afterwards."

A sorry tale indeed.

Nutty, having spent several years living in Cumbria (unfortunately down south again now) I hope your family are all well, and well served by the troops on the ground. Particularly those in Cockermouth, whose major output (Jennings) is dear to my heart. Having experienced the firemans strike back in 79 ish, mopardave will know) I know that I could only hope that I was helping to serve my fellow countrymen. It's sad if any should feel otherwise. And I'm sure the lads now deployed are mainly happy to help out. It's a sad fact that these days news moves so fast that we all seem to want to find the scapegoat, before the problem is resolved. Be it government, civil servant, county council whatever, that is something for the future, the aid to the community must be the first priority surely ?

As an aside, I watched a piece to camera today, you know, the Sky reporter up to his wellied ankles in water, doling out advice to locals not to come to town, as there were already too many "disaster tourists" turning up ! I couldn't help but think how hypocritical that was. When you watch people busting their goolies to protect their properties and businesses, as a news cameraman films on, for public consumption, there's no wonder many resent it. Well done the servicemen I say, surely a sign of support to our fellow Britons.

Smudge

Glad Rag, and your point?

Shot one,

Build on floodplains and you have two issues, one you lose the floodplain and housing stock on it then gets flooded and two you lose the soak away area of that floodplain, compound that with the fact the area is now "hard" by being built on and the run off from that.
Also you can build flood defences up as much as you want, but if you haven't dredged the river systems, something that has been cut back then your on a hiding to nothing.
Remember though, all this water needs to go somewhere, and when you build on floodplains it will shift that water elsewhere..

Ohh and I have already said well done to the troops.

Smudge,
Some of the shops in Cockermouth faired ok this time according to my sister, she tells me after the last episode as an example the butchers had the building rebuilt internally like a swimming pool with all the floors and walls sealed, so after this episode he simply had to hose it out, clean down and sterilise everything and he was back in business, others had flood defences put in place that protected them this time, not all were as savvy, but some were. Ahhh Jennings.... Nectar.

Smuj.......that one was a little before my time.....but I do indeed remember the 2002 strike! I felt badly for the lads on the green goddesses, for sure. I'm pleased to see the fire service doing what they should be doing.....trust me, they will be only too happy to be getting stuck in and helping. It's a messy and potentially dangerous business and I can only hope that all those involved have NOW got some decent PPE......is that too much to ask? A "can do" military attitude will achieve most things........but I can't imagine the w*nkers who have their hands on the levers of power, getting too cold and miserable? A first class effort by all at the sharp end!


Jennings.......hmmm, more of a Theakstons man myself!


MD:ok:

You're right about floodplains of course, Nutloose. Trouble is, this is a small island, lots of people want houses to live in and they have to go somewhere.

The answer, if there is one, has to lie along the lines of your second paragraph, in making buildings flood tolerant. Most people wouldn't want 5metre flood-walls throughout their town centres even if there was limitless money to pay for them.

The problem appears to be older properties rather than flood plains.

Much to the amazement and disbelief of locals, an architect acquired land immediately adjacent to the river on a known area of flooding.

He built a large bungalow, which duly flooded to a depth of one metre.

Undeterred he then built a second storey, but once again the lower floor flooded.
He sold the property, and for a while there was respite from flooding, however, the inevitable happened, so the new owners 'tanked' the outer walls with bitumen and built a secondary stone wall up to the level of the windowcills (two metres), however the flood that had caused their most recent flooding had overtopped and destroyed the flood defence embankment on the opposite bank of the river (flooding 40 properties).
The Environment Agency rebuilt the embankment 18 inches higher (and wider) thus 'futureproofing' the 40 properties, however, the recent flood (5th and 6th December) reached to the top of the increased-height embankment rather than flowing over (at the previous height).
Had the embankment been rebuilt to the previous height, my neighbour's tanked outer wall would have protected his property this time, however it reached the windows and penetrated within the building.
The problem now is that the outer wall will have to be demolished to allow the trapped floodwater to be dried out, and, of course, raising it a further eighteen inches would obscure the downstairs windows.

And finally, downstream of the bridge there is a concrete wall that was not increased in height, so the river flowed over and flooded the 40 houses on that side of the river, however, the Environment Agency are claiming a success in that it allowed extra time for the residents to move possessions upstairs (though their ground floor was flooded to a depth of four feet and the duration of the recent flood remained at its peak for three hours so they face many months out of their properties (once again) whilst the plaster is removed and renewed after drying out the brickwork).
Quite a success!

Having said that, things are worse - much worse - elsewhere in the country - although flooding of your property is flooding, whether it be four feet or six feet, you still need to move out whilst the walls are dried out and the floorboards renewed.

PS:- we had another flood on Boxing Day this time a modest 14 feet rather than the 5th/6th December 19 feet. No dwellings were flooded this time, but the streets and roads were closed due to the water levels preventing traffic.

Several 'white goods' put out for collection are now further downstream . . .

Indeed. Taking Carlisle as an example, virtually all the properties which have been flooded were there when I lived in the city in the 1960's, many of them Edwardian or late Victorian. The first time these were flooded was in 2005 and many more have been flooded this year. Modern planners/architects can't be blamed for Carlisles ills. I don't know York well but it would appear that again is it is older properties near the centre which have been most affected

There are many "points"...

However..

From our beloved PM, hot from COBRa

"We will be there in their hour of need"

So, what about 9 months down the line, like the previous fiasco?

York. EA had to OPEN the flood defences because the control building was about to flood,
That's right.
We are talking atomic sized incompetence, especially considering the cluster :mad: of the previous year in the SW.

I'm sure "lessons will be learnt" but :mad: all done about it.

gr

My cousin's husband, a WO2, got mobilised over Christmas and is now in York, sent from Weeton. The festivities with his young family have been disrupted, but he hasn't bitched or moaned once. We have people in the armed forces to be proud of, if not the politicians that send them from A to Z then cut their pensions/pay/allowances etc

:D :D :D :D :D

We have had four flood events in the Tyne Valley in five weeks.

(river levels so high that stormdrains cannot discharge into the river so roads and amenity spaces are flooded - one event was so severe that 44 dwellings were inundated and the occupants have moved out - some were rescued by boats having spent the night trapped upstairs)

Our problem is that raising the defences even further (they were raised 18 inches after the last flood ten years ago breached those defences) will result in the loss of the bridge (that survived the great 1771 flood that destroyed all other bridges on the river Tyne).

Loss of this bridge would mean no bus services connecting both sides of the river to the nearby town and the further city. The bridge is also a local crossing point for cars, vans and light trucks as well as pedestrians and cyclists. The shortest detour is ten miles.

Nutty, glad to hear your folks are safe (and Jennings), Mopardave, Theakstones also shows future promise mate. Thelma, our thanks and prayers must be with your relative, on the line, and I for one totally agree with your sentiment that our "lads" will always serve us well, when called on. In many ways, we have a nation to be proud of.

Smudge :ok:

The changes in flood plains & agriculture upstream means bigger faster changes in water level, plus we have had massive amounts of rainfall in the catchment areas in the Pennines when the ground is already saturated.

Preventing flooding in the future isn't just about flood defences (and do you want a 5m wall along the Ouse in York?), it's got to be about slowing down the rate rain runs off at, and part of that is finding ways to increase the amount of rain the ground can absorb.

However if you solve the problem at one place you often move it downstream. :(

Where and how houses etc. are built has to be part of it as well. The butcher with a shop tiled with swimming pool materials has been mentioned, and some of the newer buildings in York have the car park on the ground floor which means flooding doesn't damage the office areas.

Would however suggest that power stations, sub stations, telephone exchanges, water pumping stations and the like should be far better protected than at present.

I have always thought that building flood defences is similar to King Canute trying to hold back the tide.

In general I think you are right, but some vital items outlined above do need protection. And a way of mitigating flooding has to be sought, to do with slowing water leaving the catchment area.

Glad Rag, that reads better, thank you. I had heard about York but given my induced deafness I thought I had misheard.

What do our Dutch friends do? They seem to manage. Granted the PM can't do much about it today, but he could seriously look at the raising the level of intelligent spending on flood defence (been cut year on year by 27% in recent times apparently* source todays Guardian newspaper) and more.
About Yorkshire, in 1988 I easily remember going into Richmond and talking to two old boys about the River Swale (I was getting an angling permit) and they were convinced the whole river system generally flooded up more slowly, when they were young lads. The land absorbed more water and let it go more slowly, they said. Would this be true? Perhaps a reversion of land to other use. Bring back bogs, marsh and natural wetland? Possibly more natural woodland, upland woodland as well?
Massive vested interests (Grouse shooting, for a start) would be against that of course. The pressure on land for commercial worth is immense.
But these events are catching us out more and more frequently.


For my two cents worth further, I don't actually think the average Conservative Govt. minister gives a tuppence halfpenny about what goes on in the red areas, as it were-because politically it doesn't affect them. Politics is a nasty business and as long as the blue areas keep voting them back in, that will do for them.


But I have to say that from afar, reading the online newspapers and watching world news, that on this important issue large parts of Britain at the moment look an utter shambles. Cameron and his ilk should be minded to get a grip, and show some leadership - very quickly.

CMD and commercial advertising
 

CMD playing safe there on the news; shaking hands with the squaddies -silence- and the ever jovial RNLI [they may have been laughing at him but I'm unsure]

Noticed his nice sponsored jacket: can only assume it came from a BBC journalist as TNF appears to be their go to clothing [on expenses of course]

:mad:

Holland is very different to the UK geologically speaking...

cats five, my point was about buildings on flood plains not being flooded. Of course building upstream will increase water run off but the new buildings would not seem to have been affected to the same extent.

That said, we saw tonight new build with the ground floors raised higher. Garages still got flooded.

I'm surprised it took four pages for you to turn this into a lefty rant, hs: "average CONSERVATIVE minister doesn't give tuppence..." While of course their Labour shadows sit gushing tears of real grief -and spent their thirteen years in office building huge flood walls?

...And now it's all the fault of grouse shooters??!

A good read:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/j
an/13/flooding-public-spending-britain-europe-policies-homes?CMP=share_btn_tw

I see someone "oop North" has started bleating about there being more money spent on flood defences in the South than in the North.

If that is the case, how was it that a fair chunk of Somerset looked like an extension of the Bristol Channel for weeks on end not that long ago?

Or doesn't he count Somerset as "down South"?

Oh dear,

This is becoming something of a north/south split, without need gentlemen. I notice our PM correctly quoted today that his government spends more on flood defences in the north than the south. That's as it should be, it rains more the further north you go in our "sceptered isles" as a general rule. He did though duck the direct question about the 20% cuts he has imposed across the board on these very defences. A 20% cut is just that, a matter he will not address. I'm not sure if that makes me a lefty or a right winger, personally I wouldn't vote for any of the parties currently occupying parliament. I see though an element of divide and rule coming in this false wedge being driven about a north/south divide.

Smudge

Apologies for any political inference, I'm bereft of the daft pastime personally.

I watched Cameron being filmed in his wellies walking from a dry road into an inch or two of water to get his photo taken with similar wellie clad troops and I thought what a prat.... No I tell a lie, I thought what a Scum sucking low life politician trying to score kudos points off other people's misery prat.

There are people who have lost everything and here is this cretin splashing around in the water as if he is having a day out at the beach trying to score brownie points via the tabloids being filmed / photographed, as he knows the images of him wellie clad in water will appear in the papers.. :mad::mad::mad:

See what I mean

UK floods: David Cameron defends flood investment - BBC News

NutLoose, what absurd, facile comments.

Yes, the PM has been at the scene and has been sympathising with those affected by the flooding. Why does that raise your ire so?

Nutty,


If he hadn't gone there the tabloids would now be full of "Why hasn't he visited these areas?"


While holding no great love for politicians, in this case they cannot win!

It's not the fact he was there, it's the lets go stand in the water for the photo shoot, to make him look like he is involved in all of this. He could have just as easily shook the troops hands 3 foot to the left on the dry road, but that wouldn't be photogenic and make him appear to be involved.