Carlisle floods
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Carlisle floods
Whilst our sympathies are very much for the flood victims, I wonder what Pruners think of the Government using our Army to clean the streets around Carlisle football stadium? I know many soldiers were keen to go to Afghanistan to fight, but I wonder what their thoughts are cleaning the streets over Christmas?
There is a long tradition of the military pitching in and helping the civil authorities in situations like these, both at home and abroad. If it was a case of the local population sitting back and doing nothing while the military did all the work I could see an objection, but I have friends who have been flooded out (they live near Brunton Park) and they tell me that everyone, service and civilian, has been working hard to try and get the mess cleared up. At least the good people of Carlisle arent going to be attempting to blow the troops up as they go about their work!
Sharpend.....to be honest, I'm not impressed in the slightest......and I can only go on what I saw on tv so I won't pretend to have first hand knowledge of the situation up there.........but I can speak with SOME first hand experience. I thought they were inadequately equipped.....their PPE was woeful.......what training do they have? It's not always what you can see that's gonna get you.....there's a lot going on UNDER the water that's gonna bite you on the arse!!!! The other services will have been trained and equipped appropriately.......and paid overtime (I have no issue with that) I know that because it's what I used to do.
To me, it seemed like another case of the government using the armed forces.....singing their praises.......milking the photo opportunities and sound bites, but ultimately, they'll forget about all that when it comes to budget cuts.
I've seen things from both sides and I'm afraid I think successive governments find it too easy to use and then discard our forces personnel......disgraceful actually.
MD
To me, it seemed like another case of the government using the armed forces.....singing their praises.......milking the photo opportunities and sound bites, but ultimately, they'll forget about all that when it comes to budget cuts.
I've seen things from both sides and I'm afraid I think successive governments find it too easy to use and then discard our forces personnel......disgraceful actually.
MD
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Slightly biased here as my family comes from Carlisle, my sister and my brothers sons families live in Cockermouth, my other sister and brother and their families live in Carlisle.
You ask about using the military to do this, well why not, remember the tanker strikes, the floods in Wells Next to the Sea, the fireman so strikes, need I go on, the military were used in all of those, they are after all a large reserve of army manpower available to the Government who when not fighting a war are really just in training mode.
You ask about using the military to do this, well why not, remember the tanker strikes, the floods in Wells Next to the Sea, the fireman so strikes, need I go on, the military were used in all of those, they are after all a large reserve of army manpower available to the Government who when not fighting a war are really just in training mode.
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@ mopardave ... concur on the PPE and training. Our niece is a Special Rescue firefighter, based in Liverpool. Her team deployed to Carlisle at VERY short notice, but at least had all the appropriate kit and training. I have been sent a photo of her there, inside a house with water up to her chest, using an inflatable stretcher for rescue work.
Troops wading around in sewage in DPM isn't a pretty sight, but at least they provided some much-needed manpower.
Troops wading around in sewage in DPM isn't a pretty sight, but at least they provided some much-needed manpower.
MPN11.......that's the kind of thing I used to do. Aside from the obvious, at my station, most of us were water rescue technicians. I was well trained and well equipped......and I loved the variety.....even on a freezing cold winter night searching for someone who'd fallen into a river or canal......and we did have them. I remember being deployed to a Yorkshire mill town some years ago........prior to our specialist training......searching, sometimes chest deep in cold contaminated water, wearing fire kit......some of the lads went home and brought their own waders in.....a health and safety minefield. Anyway, we cracked on and got the job done......it was surreal.....some hours into the incident, I turned around, chest deep in all the filth, to see an ornate rowing boat, complete with a carved swan on the bow......provided by the parks and leisure division of the local council.....crewed by some rather self conscious firefighters.......like I said, surreal. I learned a lot about hazards under the surface that day!!!
My daughter is a junior doctor up there Nutloose......I think it's a nice town and my heart went out to all those who've had Christmas ruined. I hope your family were ok? A massive thumbs up to everyone from me.......but the government, nah sorry, they don't understand the concept of loyalty!
MD
My daughter is a junior doctor up there Nutloose......I think it's a nice town and my heart went out to all those who've had Christmas ruined. I hope your family were ok? A massive thumbs up to everyone from me.......but the government, nah sorry, they don't understand the concept of loyalty!
MD
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Been there, done it and got the t-shirt, twice....
Once in the late 70's with Devon & Cornwall in that sleepy hollow know as Newton Abbott. IIRC, we all got very wet, confirmed that the Ford Escort Mk 2's we used as Panda's had a zero wading capability and the canteen ran out of pies on the second day.
Being the late 70's there was very little H&S 'issues' every one just mucked in to get the job done, local farmers rocked up with tractors and trailers, fire brigade with pumps, even a sally army tea van!
Next time was in York, late 90's while at 34 Fd Hosp (now that was a different posting for a RE
) As per and in keeping with the units admin at the time there was zero organisation with the guys n gals initially being sent into York centre to help with the defences or was it to fill sandbags, hundreds and hundreds of sandbags... or was it millions? Cant remember but suffice to say it was a lot... Anyway we got to give the medics a crash course on how to build a sandbag wall and defences were put in place.
A few hours into the task it was sort of mentioned that a brew would be nice and when was the RQ turning up with the Hotboxes (remember those? just like the horror box but bigger) with lunch in. As it was one of the units cooks that asked the question and the rest of his mates were with him.....
Well, it rained, the river did what rivers do and just went past the sandbags and it flooded.... York Council then had zillions of wet sandbags to pick up
Once in the late 70's with Devon & Cornwall in that sleepy hollow know as Newton Abbott. IIRC, we all got very wet, confirmed that the Ford Escort Mk 2's we used as Panda's had a zero wading capability and the canteen ran out of pies on the second day.
Being the late 70's there was very little H&S 'issues' every one just mucked in to get the job done, local farmers rocked up with tractors and trailers, fire brigade with pumps, even a sally army tea van!
Next time was in York, late 90's while at 34 Fd Hosp (now that was a different posting for a RE
) As per and in keeping with the units admin at the time there was zero organisation with the guys n gals initially being sent into York centre to help with the defences or was it to fill sandbags, hundreds and hundreds of sandbags... or was it millions? Cant remember but suffice to say it was a lot... Anyway we got to give the medics a crash course on how to build a sandbag wall and defences were put in place. A few hours into the task it was sort of mentioned that a brew would be nice and when was the RQ turning up with the Hotboxes (remember those? just like the horror box but bigger) with lunch in. As it was one of the units cooks that asked the question and the rest of his mates were with him.....
Well, it rained, the river did what rivers do and just went past the sandbags and it flooded.... York Council then had zillions of wet sandbags to pick up
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Helping the locals sort out a natural calamity like this is hardly "cleaning the streets" sharpend, particularly when other agencies not to mention locals and private contractors, many unpaid, are at full stretch. I don't follow that whether soldiers are "keen to fight in Afganistan" or not has anything to do with it (that ones over, you may have noticed). They're being paid by the government(unlike many others helping) and most are keen to be doing something with a visible and tangible public benefit.
Helping the locals sort out a natural calamity like this is hardly "cleaning the streets" sharpend, particularly when other agencies not to mention locals and private contractors, many unpaid, are at full stretch. I don't follow that whether soldiers are "keen to fight in Afganistan" or not has anything to do with it (that ones over, you may have noticed). They're being paid by the government(unlike many others helping) and most are keen to be doing something with a visible and tangible public benefit.
On a slightly different note, someone somewhere knew there was a risk of this happening, gambled and lost.
It may be that with the limited resources available they had made the best calls, but will there ever be a time when bureaucrats are actually properly called to account and disciplinary proceedings taken including and up to court action.
I know if I make a judgement and things go wrong I will be held to account and will have to explain why I chose the actions I did.
It appears some public sector workers are beyond reproach. Meek lines from senior management saying lessons will be learnt, followed by people taking early retirement to avoid disciplinary action are simply not good enough. Perhaps if the senior management were held accountable in the first instance(we need an offence of wasting public money), they would take more interest in those underneath them and quickly weed out the feckless before poor decisions are made?
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I'm right with you about being called to account, Vernon. That doesn't seem to figure in the public sector anywhere these days, whether we're talking baby P or flood defences. But even with unlimited money (where from, ...defence budget??) it may not always be enough. Look at the billions spent on sea defences in Japan...And when it does i don't feel it's too outrageous to expect the services to show their qualities this way.
Could it be that someone in these flood-prone areas already has done some rough sums and figured out that in the long run it's much cheaper to just reimburse (barely) people for the occasional flood damage than it would be to erect proper defences to ensure that the occasional floods didn't happen?
British Armed Forces have 7 roles:
- defending the UK and its overseas territories
- providing strategic intelligence
- providing nuclear deterrence
- supporting civil emergency organisations in times of crisis
- defending our interests by projecting power strategically and through expeditionary interventions
- providing a defence contribution to UK influence
- providing security for stabilisation
We were even taught about "Aid to the civil power" during officer training. It's a legitimate role which is good for the country when required and benefits the Forces in the public view. I don't think I've ever heard many complaints from the guys when tasked with such things - on the contrary, normally more than enough volunteers; and that's down to the sort of people that want to be in the military. Is anyone suggesting that's all changed?
- defending the UK and its overseas territories
- providing strategic intelligence
- providing nuclear deterrence
- supporting civil emergency organisations in times of crisis
- defending our interests by projecting power strategically and through expeditionary interventions
- providing a defence contribution to UK influence
- providing security for stabilisation
We were even taught about "Aid to the civil power" during officer training. It's a legitimate role which is good for the country when required and benefits the Forces in the public view. I don't think I've ever heard many complaints from the guys when tasked with such things - on the contrary, normally more than enough volunteers; and that's down to the sort of people that want to be in the military. Is anyone suggesting that's all changed?
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Could it be that someone in these flood-prone areas already has done some rough sums and figured out that in the long run it's much cheaper to just reimburse (barely) people for the occasional flood damage than it would be to erect proper defences to ensure that the occasional floods didn't happen?
Bitts park BTW always flooded all the years I lived there, though some areas of the City would be difficult to defend against flooding, due to the likes of where the Caldew joins the Eden and the built up area around that being in close proximity to the river with few opportunities to build defences.
The problem with flood defences though is they simply shift the problem from one area to another.
Hmm - "Aid to the Civil Power". In my day ISTR we were taught to Read the Riot Act , unfurl the "Disperse or we shoot" banner, and if you fired it was "aimed shots at the ringleader(s)"
Fair enough, but if it is all hands to the pumps(excuse the pun) then I would expect the councils etc to grab all available manpower to help, including office workers. Humping and dumping is not a skilled job, what is needed is numbers.
And if I'm honest, on reflection I have to agree with her. I know what my answer would be if I was an office worker with the local council and I was given some PPE and told to report for humping and dumping duties.
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So, we send troops to help out the residents of Cumbria, as we have before in Humberside, York, Devon, Somerset, Thames flood plain, etc, etc.
Money comes from the various budgets from 'our' tax; have we heard anything about the UK being given money from other countries as part of a rescue package?? No. We, as the UK, as quick to send money abroad to help areas under flood, suffering from earthquakes, etc, but when was the last time we received funding in return.
Maybe Mr Cameron should take this up with the EU; we'll pay into the fund as long as we get funding back and use this as an example.........
Money comes from the various budgets from 'our' tax; have we heard anything about the UK being given money from other countries as part of a rescue package?? No. We, as the UK, as quick to send money abroad to help areas under flood, suffering from earthquakes, etc, but when was the last time we received funding in return.
Maybe Mr Cameron should take this up with the EU; we'll pay into the fund as long as we get funding back and use this as an example.........
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One of the paper and presentation exercises I did at OASC 31 years ago (to the week, even!) involved flood control. If I remember correctly, it involved a lot of calculating the volume and quantity of sandbags, and abusing the hospitality of the local WI.
Not a lot changes, does it?
All the best and much respect to those aiding the civil power at the moment.
Not a lot changes, does it?
All the best and much respect to those aiding the civil power at the moment.