Real Experience
 

JP I know what you mean;at Kenley out CO had us making loads of useful equipment from scratch,it was a spin off from his job at the Woolwich Arsenal.
At least 50% of the original instructors had started when the ATC only had single seaters and after briefing his cadet would then winch him on a ground slide! many of the others were former aircrew.
You were encouraged to attend courses for Glider inspections and simple repairs so consequently even staff cadets were 'qualified' to be hands on with all the equipment in use.
If someone had suggested we aerotowed a machine to Halesland the answer would probably have been 'why only one'.
I am sorry T-head but the schools were both capable and safe and did not need a hangar full of p-work to operate because they knew their business and passed on quality and capability to a high standard.I agree there was far less of a H&S culture but that was because it had not been invented then; however it did exist by the very capability,common sense, and standards the schools operated to without the 'tick box' mentality that has been the reason for the current debacle.
Remember all of the current problems stem from the full time paid 'system' that is supposed to back up the VGS operations;i would also remind you that the safety record (which is the only bench mark you can use) is not exceeded by any other flying organisation including the RAF.

I guess it depends what you call safe? My records indicate that 8 of the 15 Prefects, 21 Barges and 50 Mk3s were written off in Air Cadet Service and no I have not included Hangar fires and buildings collapsing.

Write offs
 

I suspect the write offs were more to do with the reducing ability to repair aircraft, similar to the situation with the canvas hangars that became u/s due to eventual lack of maintenance.
Barges were also prone to 'blow-overs' when mini-sqalls 'nipped in' and it did limit their use when operating with limited manpower and the inability to 'quickly' return then to a hangar.
The Prefect skid was not that beefy, and i seem to recall the pylon behind the pilot could 'spring' if the nose dug in on a poor or undulating surface.
However when you look at the flying incidents record against the type of operation,length of service,huge no of launches, and ratio of injuries(virtually zero) the record is second to none.
Remember; the organisation was turning out 'HUNDREDS' of A&B certs every year with Cadets having far less dual before doing 3 solo's.
The CFI's would keep a very careful watch on operations and in the main were VERY experienced instructors that no one questioned.

I recall that at restricted sites the base leg and final turn was only 400/200 ft
which gives very little margin for error,and sites like Halesland would never have been chosen in later years.
I think the 'capability' factor carried on due to staff continuity and the pride the Schools had in their operation.
Looking back at the actual way standards were maintained i think the rising staff Cadet element were always aware that although they had great freedom;an abuse of that trust would mean a swift departure out of the system and the CFI needed only to 'hint' about something for it to be taken very seriously. In fact this had the effect of increasing 'capability' as one aspired to maintain standards but also became 'capable' of avoiding being caught on 'excursions' !!

Latest Tweet from OC 2FTS
 

I see the official channels are working.....

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x...psueo7rih8.png

Seems that we have to search social media (Twitter and Facebook) to see what is really happening out there.


Freda

Wow
 

Some faltering progress then, extrapolating to maybe having ACCGS operational soon, followed by a search for any remaining VGS staff who may live somewhere near to the new non-disclosed locations post Basing review.


Try to fit them in to re-categorise at ACCGS, and hopefully having the odd aircraft to put into VGS location for local checks, and hey presto, there may be a shadow of something that we used to have years ago - by mid 2017. Only the New Years Honours list to submit names for "Queens Commendation for valuable service on the Ground" hereinafter named "The Fig leaf".


Good to see it's being treated as a rush job !

IMHO this thread has seen far too many posts that have been dedicated to "bashing the head" and the belittling of the management structure of the ACO.


It matters not who or what is to blame for the "temporary" grounding of Air Cadet Gliding Operations. The whole point of the matter is that the Operational Duty Holder (ODH) made the "right call" in the bringing to a halt of gliding operations.


It matters NOT how "excellent" everyone, in the past, might have been within their old style management of the ACO. Moreover, "the system" has since moved on and, like it or lump it, everyone within the ACO is now held accountable for their actions within the structure of the MAA.


EVERY aircraft platform, within the RAF (Army or Navy), must have a risk register. It so happens that the Risk to Life (RtL) register of the glider platform was proven to be lacking with the engineering documentation. The fact of the matter is... there have been many repairs made to the glider fleet that didn't have an "authorised" repair schedule. The quantifying of those unauthorised repairs has become the subject of closer examination and, upon the necessary re-examination of those unauthorised repairs, new work schedules have been written, where appropriate, to approve the work that had been previously undertaken.


Hence, it matters not whether or not a flying suit didn't have the correct "stitching" to a name badge or that a fire extinguisher was found to be out of date (as previously reported), the whole "point" of the matter is that there were many shortfalls, within the engineering documentation, that warranted the "pause to flying".


Flying Regulation and the following of "correct engineering procedure" is the cornerstone of "airworthiness" for the whole of the ACO. The Viking and Vigilant, none complex platforms that they might be, remain under similar close scrutiny as any other aircraft platform that the RAF, Army or Navy might operate.


No one is doubting the ability of the VGS staff who have painstakingly made every effort to continue with their professional contribution to this worthwhile organisation. I would ask everyone who's involved with Air Cadet Gliding to reconsider some of the negative attitudes that have been so vociferously displayed here on PPrune to think again. Your "worth" to the young folk who wish to continue to fly within the ACO is within your hands.


TCF

Recovery Rate
 

So, up to 78 Vikings left to recover (if the fleet size of 81 that has been quoted is correct).

Does anyone know what the expected recovery rate is for the Viking? We cannot hide from the truth that the recovery rate has been shockingly low to date, by anyone's standards (8 aircraft in 22 months). This is now what needs to improve, lest the level of skill fade grows further and comes back to haunt us. It would be nice to think that every VGS could have at least 3 or 4 aircraft back by the middle of the summer.

A Failure of Leadership, Culture and Priorities
 

I was just casting my eye back over the XV230 report by Charles Haddon-Cave QC.

It is titled 'A failure of Leadership, Culture and Priorities'. It cites 'a series of weaknesses in the area of personnel'. And one of the recommendations says:

'Recommendation 28.7: Officers’ terms on appointment should no longer include ‘change objectives’ but should, in future, include a statement requiring them to consider carefully the impact of any changes or initiatives and whether there might be any indirect or direct implications for Safety or Airworthiness.'

So, why has someone thought it sensible to replace a fleet of fully serviceable Van Gelder winches during the 'pause'. Not only will there be flying skill fade to contend with when gliding resumes there will now also be the challenge of operating a new type of winch, which is bound to bring teething problems - some no doubt airfield specific. A resumption of operations with the old winch followed by the gradual introduction of the new winch once instructors and staff had achieved a sensible level of flying currency would have been far preferable. As it is, another 'moving part' has been changed that did not need to be. The level of risk has been elevated unnecessarily, not to mention for no improvement in output.

The wrong target !
 

The uniformed side of this debacle while not showing spectacular management skills should not be the target for most of the wrath from the forum.

The majority of the problems and the slow recovery rate of aircraft is largely a result of the legacy contractors lack of urgency, culture of indifference, lack of basic composite skills and a contract that lacks a performance criteria ( IE tech questions that go unanswered for months )

In the face of the lack of or wildly inaccurate data from the legacy maintenance & support contractors the uniformed side of this unfortunate mess have just stopped talking because anything they say is likely to be rendered untrue because they have been misinformed.

The MoD & VGS management are between a rock and a hard place, on one side is the very poor performance of the legacy contractor and the other to quickly return aircraft to service, the MoD may well have wished to have terminated the legacy contractors long ago but this action would have delayed the return to service further as it would take another contractor time to take over.

Part of the problem is that the culture inside the legacy contractors ranks is such that one would not want to employ anyone from that company for fear of poisoning the work ethic in your own company so the normal military contract practice of re-employing the workforce and a seamless change of management is not avalable.

There is no doubt that the underperformance of the contractors should have been picked up years back but with the budget of the RAF under pressure and other much more pressing business the line taken by the MoD was "it is only a simple glider contract, how can it go wrong ". An attitude that one can understand when you have much bigger fish to fry and not much money to do it.

Chitterne Flyer
Few people on here have criticised the original "pause" decision. How the VGS aircraft got into such a poor state of "airworthiness" is quite another question. There are too many vested parties who have had too long to cover their tracks for any investigation to be worthwhile.
The criticism of the leadership of 2 FTS and ACO senior leadership is founded on the many hundreds of people left let down by unworthy and aloof Officers who have been promoted and appointed into these positions after an undistinguished RAF career to supplement or enhance their pension.
In normal times these characters would not be found out as the organisation would continue to function despite their efforts, however, these are not normal times. In true military fashion whilst the important issues are ignored or nudged in one direction and another the focus turns to the trivia such as flying badges and empire building. More effective leadership could well have found us on this very same path with the same outcome. The timescale may not have been that much different. What would have been different is the communication and leadership from the very top all the way down to Staff Cadet level in the various VGS and the newly joined youngster in the ATC squadrons.
Unlike the regular forces where poor leadership has to be tolerated due to military law and discipline, outside in the Civilian world poor leadership is quickly spotted and is generally dealt with quickly to remove obstacles to success. This is the reality of modern management for business to survive. The VGS is operating with British Leyland style leaders in a Google world.

TCF,

I'm sorry but I will disagree with part of your post.

It does matter who is responsible for this mess. Whoever, they were getting paid to do a job. They failed to carry out that task. That is public money and the tax payers have every right to expect their money not to be wasted and those responsible held to account.

If it was the contractor, what were the CMT doing to ensure there was compliance with the contract?

It is now becoming more popular in today's environment that people of all professions think that they can absolve themselves of responsibility when it goes tits up.

ATC in the news
 

Two brave young men, and a perfect example of why we should be doing everything we can to grow the number of cadets. The number of air cadets has reduced by around 10 per cent over the past 18 months - arguably (and most likely) because of a lack of gliding (and flying) opportunities.

Are they brave young men because they are Air Cadets, or are they Air Cadets because they are brave young men?

Cats five
 

It is a bit of both, the ATC will always attract the more adventurous but they tend to bring others along with them.

The ATC develops positive character in young people of all abilities, the flying is a recruiting hook but the confidence and self esteem that flying solo gives along with the sence of responsibility is a tool for building responsible adults.

The actions reported from Stockport show how the skills developed in the ATC have a positive impact in society at large, this was well understood Mrs Thatcher when she considerably boosted the cadet forces budget.

Finally I am sure that along with the rest of this forums contributors I would like to congratulate the two cadets from Stockport for their actions.

To be fair to the ATC in terms of numbers, it should be considered against the demography of the ATC target cohort 13-ish to 20.

The size of that cohort has been falling; we can all remember a few years ago a number of primary schools closing or amalgamating because of falling rolls - that has now moved on to reduce the size of the pool in which the ATC can fish for cadets.

Not saying that lack of flying hasn't turned off some cadets, just saying it's not the only reason for falling numbers ......

Not saying that lack of flying hasn't turned off some cadets, just saying it's not the only reason for falling numbers

Agree. It's wrong (if utterly predictable from some parties) to lay all the blame for falling cadet numbers at the door of the AEF/VGS issues.

Hate to break it to you but all the aircraft types you mention (and most others) have been somewhat busy in recent years. But if you feel that wars, upgrade programmes, manning crises and the like shouldn't stand in the way of providing AEF in operational types, please contact the Stn Cdr at the relevant base to make your point. And do share the reply.

Hmm. But CCF RAF cadet numbers are falling in schools where the number of pupils hasn't.

Vigilants are being moved from Ternhill to Syerston this week, 90 day inspection/repair ? timescale has been quoted, believe some are leaving Cosford as well for Syerston soon.

Replacing Winches
 

As i heard it from am impeccable source the winches did not really need replacing but are going to be replaced by a 'smart winch' because on paper it leaves less to operator 'input',and provides some income for the winch company.
As many on here will know a winch is as complicated as a motorised fishing reel,if fact less complicated.The basic 'end product' has not changed and was yet another task readily undertaken for decades by young staff cadets many of whom had no driving licence.
On the MB twin drum there was still a choice of gears,and a 3rd gear launch on a windless day would not work.
Having said that the driver would know what aircraft he was launching and the approx wind strength.He would then consult a very complicated multi functional onboard computer and operate as required when given suitable signals.
As each computer was tailored to individual parameters the drivers took them home with them for safe keeping.The driver also had to remember to turn off the fuel when finished to avoid it draining into the oil sump which would then need draining and refilling with OMD11O. As the drain plug was enormous (about 36mm) it was not a size in most peoples car tool kit.It was of course down to the staff cadet who had an old VW Beetle and serviced it himself that could arrange this vital tool if ever required. The paperwork and documentation for all the aforementioned 'winch operation' was less than a A4 sheet and it worked.No operation has been improved by making it more complicated than required, but it is a good way of spending taxpayers money.

Just because they are going to Syerston doesn't mean they will be coming back from Syerston.................. :}

Your impeccable source sounds like they hadn't been near an MVG winch for a while! Of the 8 Viking Squadrons some had to stop flying prior to the great pause because of an inability to get a serviceable winch.

If you did have a winch the chance of having 4 or more drums working was unlikely due to lack of spare parts.

Tingger

Pobjoy is correct for the TWIN DRUM Winch which preceded the MVG 6 drum winch (and obviously you :))

You are correct with regard to your comments on the MVG for which it was beginning to get hard to get spares for since MVG ceased trading. I also felt that since the MVG was not a mainstream bit of RAF kit the MT fitters never really got to grips with it as they only saw it a few times a year..................

WRT to your comments though in the end ACCGS had spare MVG's because there were fewer and fewer Winch Launch schools operating against establishment so I am not convinced about the 'Pause before the Pause' argument - sounds like someone at the centre fobbing you off as they would have to arrange a low loader to move it...............:}

Arc

That pause before the pause definitely happened when the only serviceable spare winch "fell" off the low loader and broke it's back.

Is it a bit of both? Did you look at the sort of school those young men are going to? It's the sort of school that prides itself on developing 'positive character in young people of all abilities' and of course it has a lot longer with it's pupils than the ATC do.

MVG Winches
 

Ah so they could not even keep the winches properly serviced.
Must have been manna from heaven when they grounded the fleet in 2014 as it saved another scandal of u/s winches stopping flying.
Good news for those of looking for a cheap winch when they come up for disposal,i mean, who will want one!!!
Having said that there was nothing wrong with the MB twin drum that a 're-power' for the new ships could not have sorted.

If Winkle Brown had been running ATC gliding we would have had mini rockets pods by now,and queue's of Cadets wanting 'another launch'.
Having said that the Staff Cadets would no doubt have been tempted to see how many were needed to get a LR through the 60 barrier,(early LR i mean).

MVG Winches
 

....and if there was engine or transmission problems with the MVG winches none of those 6 drums would have been available!! I suspect quite a number of flying days have been lost because of this since their introduction.

Hence I suspect, that each (surviving) VGS will now get two of the new Skylaunch winches, just like we used to have two twin drum winches. As they say.."what goes around..."

Winch
 

Some of you gents need to stop living in the past and quit moaning all the time. The new Skylaunch winch is significantly better and safer than any previous winch the Air Cadet organisation has ever been equipped with. Oh and by the way it comes equipped with plastic rope rather than steel cable - no doubt this will give you something else to moan about?

What surprised me about Eric Brown's list of types was how few gliders were on it, and nothing from the modern era e.g. a Slingsby Vega for example. I wonder what he would have made of flying 500km in something like an ASH25 with a 60:1 glide ratio even at getting on for 80 knots? The back seat pilot gets a stunning view of the flexible wings doing their thing...

Winkle Brown Gliders
 

Eric Brown really 'rated' his gliding flights in the ME 163 Komet (plus his hot one)

Cats five
 

The educational establishment that I went to was crap............. When I was a CI with a local ATC unit the schools in the area had not improved.

I am sure that the ATC unit I was with kept more than a few young people out of prison by inspiring them, rather than the school that seemed to put them in a box marked factory fodder.

If the nations education system has improved I am pleased, but the product may have archived academic goals but seems to still lack life skills, something that the cadet forces do well.

A well funded cadet force is an investment in people that is priceless for the nation.

Ref winches....


I say bring back the twin drum Eagles! :E


Hours of fun teaching people to use them...you certainly learned all about clutch control 'driving' one of those!

No need for practice launch failures....you got so many real ones! :eek:


Those lovely after flying (or pre flying on a windy/cloudy/wet morning) hours spent retying knots.


...And a few other antics I couldn't possibly comment on! :p

Cable DI's
 

It is not entirely true to say there was no H&S culture in the old days.
When instructing new S-Cadets on the chopping of cable to retape knots i always told them to 'blink' just before the axe made contact.
Not too early so it missed your fingers.
No goggles, no gloves, and no eye injuries.

Then there was the demonstration of 'drum brake fade' when the pressure was on to get the cable 'in quick' so a pair could be sent back to the launch point.

With the canvas parachute 'sailing' along at a few feet and getting rather close the picture on the winch drivers face when he closed the throttle and pushed the clutch/brake but all to no avail as the brake drum expanded and there was the unmistakable sound of the 'parachute through the rollers' followed by some very metal to metal noises.

I had an interesting meeting at the RIAT Hangar Party a couple of years back, a collegue and I got talking (with much beer ;) ) to the Irish CASA crew ,great bunch of guys but one didn't really mix and sat back.
The crew got up to get some food the quiet one then came over and said to my mate "your RAF(VR)T" "Yes", "You are Air Cadet staff" "Yes" "You're L****" big look of shock!
Conversation followed , the airman was from West Belfast (where he was from I probably knew the family as I was stationed there for ten years) and joined a local Sqn with one of his mates from a school outside the area, loved the experience and on leaving school applied to join the RAF, two problems one "the boys" called round and threatened to shoot him if he continued on with this , two uncle was a senior Provo so security clearance was not going to happen. As a result of this he joined the IAC and he put it all down to the ATC as he said most of his "mates" from West Belfast ended up as joyriders etc. The ATC gave him something to aim for that otherwise he wouldn't have thought about and he recognised my mate straight away as he had been with him on several cadet activities .

Latest rumour is to expect news between 7th of March and Good Friday. Starting to grow tired off the slippage of new news now... :zzz::zzz::zzz:

The kids really do need some positive news as we approach the end of year 2 of no air cadet gliding. :{

The B Word

Does the rumour say which year?!!!!

B word
 

It is more than a bit difficult for the VGS management to say much when they continue to be so badly let down by the holders of the support and type certificate contracts who use technical paperwork to cover their lack of ability to support the recovery.

As I have said before they are between a rock and a hard place, if they fire them ( may be they would like to do this ) then no work gets done untill new contractors get up to speed and if they keep them on very little gets done.

So they have chosen a middle ground with the Vikings, another contractor is doing the physical work but still bound by the legacy contractors and type certificate holders for parts and technical data.

It would seem to me that they are setting up for contractor change but this has to happen at a rate that the industry can cope with and avoid getting into a legal mess by letting things run until the end of existing contracts.

The waiting for information is .......
 

Saw this on another forum and thought it may help to lighten the situation while we wait for some news..

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x...psaysg7rwj.jpg

I've just picked up this Re the MVG winch, as I looked after a VGS equipped with the MVG I can say with all honesty that it presented no challenge at all in regard to maintenance, the main issue was with poor quality parts provided when spares were required, in particular the vertical guide rollers. As regards moving the winch, we always used a low loader, it was obvious that that was the only way to do it safely, I don't recall ever getting any advice from ACCGS on this, it was a decision we took locally.

PM

PS WE992, surely not "plastic" rope? A "Dyneema" type?

Announcement Timing
 

I have heard from a reliable source that we can expect a public announcement on 10th March. There is planned to be a formal written statement released by the Minister at some point on this date.