PPRuNe Forums - Here it comes: Syria

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)

- Military Aviation (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation-57/)

- - Here it comes: Syria (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/513470-here-comes-syria.html)

A French newspaper is reporting that a coalition has been put together of US, France, UK, Germany, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Italy, Canada and Turkey in order to attack Assad.
Cameron has returned from holiday and heads a war cabinet tomorrow.
There are increasing calls for Parliament to be recalled before we strike. But spokesmen are saying this may not be necessary (due to the limited nature of the proposed strike and the need to act quickly).
Syria: Britain and US pledge to use force within two weeks as UN weapons inspectors prepare to visit alleged chemical weapons attack site - Middle East - World - The Independent
Hague says UN backing not necessary (Kosovo precedent).
On Saturday the 4 US destroyers in the Mediterranean were ordered closer to Syria.

Well "something" is brewing if DC needs to return early from his hol's. He is in the seat of government and, he hasn't come back just to talk to MP's:uhoh:.

OAP

Quote:

Alemaobiano

And of course those nice, friendly, rule & fairness-adhering chaps in Al Qaeda PLC. wouldn't dream of using Bio-Chemical weapons on an area of secularist Syrian civilians would they?

Knowing that the gullible, soft-handed, spineless political apparatchiks of the liberalist western democracies would fall for such a trick.

Syria is not our war.

Totally agree, waiting to hear what the Russian Foreign Minister has to say in a couple of hours. We will have had by Wednesday two and a half days to recall Parliament on standby. Whilst I hate labours guts with a passion, the idiot Alexander is right on the nail for once. This is a situation which is NOT a national security risk to the UK, in fact may increase our risk domestically.

The coalition of the willing include Saudi Arabia and Qatar, enemies of Iran, yet more explosives to add to the pot and may give Iran the excuse to close or restrict traffic in the Straits of Hormuz.

Sky, reports that snipers have shot at the UN inspection team, Assad's forces or rebels.

Politicians shouting their mouths off is making the situation worse and ramping up the bloodlust for action. Ashdown calling for limited action, man's hardly ever right at the best of times and in my opinion wrong again.

Time to stay out, not be involved and support Jordan and Turkey with the refugee problem.

Eclectic

I said proof, not propaganda videos. You know, something like an unequivocal statement from the UN that the regime has used CW, or even a definitive statement from one of the politicians itching to get involved. Wee Willie's "belief" doesn't count, after all some people believe in Santa and the Easter
Bunny.

Quote:

And of course those nice, friendly, rule & fairness-adhering chaps in Al Qaeda PLC. wouldn't dream of using Bio-Chemical weapons on an area of secularist Syrian civilians would they?

As a good percentage of the "rebels" are not Syrian they wouldn't actually be using CW on their "own" people, would they?

@ alemaobaiano

You obviously haven't watched all those videos.
Two are from the BBC.
And one is US government.

Quote:

Two are from the BBC.
And one is US government.

And none of them contain any proof. Plenty of supposition, plenty of opinion, and yet not one piece of concrete evidence.

Quote:

@ alemaobaiano

You obviously haven't watched all those videos.
Two are from the BBC.
And one is US government.

And, which kind person/s gave them to the BBC and the US.

I'm not military, never have been. But, are we really going to go to war based on tv reports?

Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

It seems that you don't believe governments and top Western experts.

So the only valid proof would be to go and see for yourself.

Wow the state of those rebels in the videos earlier, and a few on here along with some western governments want them to run Syria, simply unreal!
Assad is still clearly the least bad option, actually compared to them his regime running Syria seems a pretty damn good option!

For those of short memory lets look at the last terrible and pointless little war that did far more harm than good!

Two years on from the fall of Colonel Gaddafi in Libya, the euphoria of the revolution has all but gone. Today, armed militias and Islamists rule much of the country fighting over territory, smuggling routes, and shares of dwindling oil revenue. To top that off, a desperate government is quietly re-activating Colonel Gaddafi's feared surveillance apparatus, using it to hunt down dissenters. RT's Paula Slier reports on the sobering anniversary.
Tripoli Torment: Libya crippled by jihad & oil brawl 2 yrs after Gaddafi ouster - YouTube

Another place totally ruined! If Assad falls this will be Syria in the future! Maybe Syria could even be worse. I am made sick to the stomach by Cameron, Hague, Obama, Hollander and Erdogan. (Erdogan himself is a much reviled figure by many in Turkey).

Sadly it looks as though the worst is going to happen, no matter what the inspection teams find out.

I couldn't imagine a more fragmented coalition, with more diverse and extreme political agendas. It only needs Israel and Iran to make it even more flaky. Not too sure how Canada fits into it, other than having a bully on its Southern border! Hopefully they are joining purely because of the moral issues.

At this point, it matters very little who the evil b@stards were that used the gas, things are about to get very much worse. The potential outcome could be extremely messy, overspilling into the Mid-East, Europe and probably beyond.

Eclectic, do you honestly expect any of us to believe anything that the UK, US or French governments have to tell us?
I remember Iraq and WMD!

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me!

Also check out my link about Libya above. I think that war was the final nail in the coffin for my support of the fools we call politicians, also the final time in my life I would ever vote Tory! As for the muppet Labour party not a chance either.

Quote:

It seems that you don't believe governments and top Western experts.

I remember the sh*t Blair with 45 minutes and weapons of mass destruction and lying to the UN. Trust a politician, only when their cold dead body is on a mortuary slab even then without a stake through the heart (if you can find it) I would be sceptical they were dead.

Quote:

It seems that you don't believe governments and top Western experts.

Given their propensity for outright deception why should I believe any government who has an interest in this conflict?

And what of the western experts who aren't convinced? Here's a collection of dissenting views.

Syria: 1,300 killed in gas attack, says*Oppn - Hindustan Times

Before anyone else joins in the Syrian mess, I'd love to hear what the 'out' plan is, or even what the objectives are.
Those points should be compared to how well such plans/objectives have worked (as Ronald Reagan has pointed out), in Libya, 'Stan, Iraq, etc.

I do not hear any great clamour to 'do something' from any significant proportion of the general populus in the countries contemplating action. Indeed, all the chat I hear is against action.

So what, exactly, are the political leaders up to?

If Assad has used chemical weapons against his own citizens, it pretty much stands to reason that he will use them against foreign aggressors on his soil.

I can imagine the apoplexy in Washington & London if that happens. What to do if (when) that happens? Nuke Damascus?

I see nothing but own goals ahead here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by satsuma (Post 8008945)

Lonewolf 50
Your choice of words is borderline inhuman given the atrocious savagery that has recently been witnessed. I am, however, sure that you sleep soundly and safely in your comfortable bed.

And I am responsible for none of that. My words are not inhuman, and your overwrought post establishes your lack of perspective. Thanks for sharing your outrage. I sleep quite well, thanks, as I'm not the one gassing people. Save your ire for those who are.

In other news:
Seems that the Alloha Snack Bar brigade forgot that cover and concealment, like harassment, must be continuous to be effective.

Eclectic:

Quote:

Re chemical weapons. Syria has one of the world's largest stockpiles. Assad has been using them regularly against the rebels since 19 March this year, without the world doing anything.

Unproven assertion, but you may be right. The trouble is in confirming this line of thought. There is the chance that Assad believes that he can get Russian top cover, and thus thinks he can get away with this sort of thing. But adding to the number of parties in this mess, even if it hurts him, strikes me as a fine way of making it into a bigger mess.

I am hoping that the US and Russia can find some way to work together on this problem in Syria. That to me is the critical domino that needs to fall for the international community to be able to assist in any meaningful way beyond refugee support.

EDIT:
For those who didn't go to the Hindustan times link ...

Quote:

Specialists in the impact of chemical weapons said the video evidence was not entirely convincing.

"At the moment, I am not totally convinced because the people that are
helping them are without any protective clothing and without any respirators," said Paula Vanninen, director of Verifin, the Finnish Institute for Verification of the Chemical Weapons Convention. "In a real case, they would also be contaminated and would also be having symptoms."

John Hart, head of the Chemical and Biological Security Project at Stockholm International Peace Research Institute said he had not seen the telltale evidence in the eyes of the victims that would be compelling evidence of chemical weapons use.

"Of the videos that I've seen for the last few hours, none of them show
pinpoint pupils... this would indicate exposure to organophosphorus nerve
agents," he said.

Gwyn Winfield, editor of CBRNe World magazine, which specialises in chemical weapons issues, said the evidence did not suggest that the chemicals used were of the weapons-grade that the Syrian army possesses in its stockpiles. "We're not seeing reports that doctors and nurses... are becoming fatalities, so that would suggest that the toxicity of it isn't what we would consider military sarin. It may well be that it is a lower-grade," Winfield told AFP.

Russia, which has previously said it has proof of chemical weapons use by the rebels, expressed deep scepticism about the opposition's claims. The foreign ministry said the timing of the allegations as UN inspectors
began their work "makes us think that we are once again dealing with a
premeditated provocation."

The fog or war extends beyond Syria's borders, eh?

If we look back into history, we recall reports in the early months of WW I that included
GERMANS BAYONET BELGIAN BABIES.
BELGIAN NUNS RAPED BY VICIOUS HUNS

In 1898, America went to war with Spain over Cuba, with a critical piece of rhetoric, the explosion of USS Maine in Havanna Harbor, being blamed on the Spanish. A somewhat famous Naval Officer named Hyman Rickover did an investigation that, to say the least, cast serious doubt on any external agent being the proximate cause of that explosion.

Playing Devils advocate, and interested in your insight, I wonder if anyone knows if Syrian Missiles can reach the only aircraft carrier serving in the British Military, RAF Akrotiri. If so, I could see a wave of Tomahawks on Syria being answered by Syrian missile attacks on Troodos, Akrotiri etc. I'm sure that even the Russians might argue that the Syrians were defending themselves from external aggression. How many would die in Cyprus, if chemical agents were used ? Of course, US military, being mobile and not easily hit could soldier on. Does anyone else wonder on a similar course of events, or are the Syrians not capable of such responses ?

Smudge

G-FORC3 wrote:
If ever there was a purpose for having the UN, this is it.

The United Nations is not only unfit for purpose, it has demonstrated its crass ineptitude so expensively so many times.