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Hornetboy 25th Dec 2001 12:20

RAAF Flight Screening Programme
Hey guys,

I need a little help here. Going for RAAF initial testing in a couple of weeks, and had a pretty specific question regarding the aptitude section. All they said on the info sheet was something along the lines of "You should attempt to answer as many questions correctly as time permits"

So here's the Q: Are you marked on just what you've managed to complete, or the whole lot? And do you get points subtracted for attempting and getting things wrong?....cos if you run low on time remaining, should you try and circle/cross/tick as many answers as possible, or just hand in what you've managed to think through and complete?

Thanks heaps for any help.

predatory female 25th Dec 2001 13:18

In my experience it depends on the test they use. There are plenty of aptitude tests which will mark you down and actually subtract points for getting questions wrong, just to stop people from doing quick guess-work at the end. The best advice is to work through them quickly and if you're having real problems, just move on and miss that particular question out completely.

Cougar 25th Dec 2001 15:47

For RAAF aptitude testing (aircrew i am talking here, think ATC have some different ones), there are numerous maths related papers that you get on the day. As far as i am aware, some are marked one way, the others the other way.

As such my advice is: answer as many as quickly as you can, but don't just circle any randomly at the end if you run out. I did that years ago and it worked for me.

Good luck, let us know how you go.

Hornetboy 26th Dec 2001 10:22

Thanks heaps Predatory female and Cougar. As it stands, looks like guesswork may be an unnecessary risk. Anyone with an opinion please post for all to see. I'll post on how I do Cougs but it's gonna be a few weeks wait. Any other tips to not-screw-up the process??

The Famous Eccles 27th Dec 2001 02:32

Kidnap the adjudicating (?) officers wife and hold her to ransom until you get the right result!

Best of luck

melchett 27th Dec 2001 03:47

Get hold of practice IQ questions. I used an old 1960's book called "know your own IQ" or something which had things like number sequences (ie. 2,4,6,..,10 etc)and cryptic symbols where you pick the odd one out. No idea if these are contained in the tests these days, but it came in very useful. There are also practice aircrew aptitude tests out there somewhere too.

Hornetboy 27th Dec 2001 07:37

"practice aircrew aptitude tests out there somewhere"

.....does anyone know where??? And what they're called? I heard of some ARCO ones for the USAF you could order somehow but that's a little far and might be totally irrelevant to the RAAF tests. Thanks Melchett, hope it's like the IQ tests. I actually scored ok on a real one I did this year (ya'd never have guessed :) )......come to think of it I did all sorts of guesswork towards the end though..... <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> maybe I was just lucky??

Onya.....uhhh.....I'll consider the proposition if the situation calls for it <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Cougar 30th Dec 2001 16:55

Interesting you mentioned praccy aptitude tests. There is a book floating round that a friend used to do a specialisation transfer with. Used it to get faster and more accurate at maths q's. Said it worked really well, and you can pick it up from your local ABC shop ?? Said she nailed the tests cos of it.

Other hints? Always be honest. With the psych especially, as they will ask you two q's that are the same but worded differently, but they ask them 30 mins apart to see whether you are being honest or making it up. I had a 2 hr 30 min psych interview the first time and i think i got one question asked 4 times!! Who knows with the psychs, my brain was quite frazzled by then <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Other tip for testing: If you make a mistake, don't dwell on it. Move on and forget about it (don't let it consume your focus for the ensuing tests).


Hornetboy 14th Jan 2002 15:11

RAAF Aptitude Test Results
Well a few of the guys who gave me a bit of advice on the tests in a previous post wanted to hear how I'd go with them. Thanks for the help guys, and here ya go....

....I failed. Damn huh. I woke up at 5am in the morning to get there for nothing. Well, almost. Here's a bit of a summary of what they do up there first:

It's probably very similar in all recruiting units. First you do quite a bit of waiting, just to help with the nerves ya know <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> Then you're put in a room, and everyone starts off with the general ability test, which is comprehensively explained. It is followed by an essay. Aircrew pilot applicants then go through an extensive battery of tests. Most are short and there's a helluva lot of maths towards the end. I actually managed to finish a couple of them, so it's not impossible to complete them. But just barely. They're all very challenging.

Then there's lunch break, followed by coordination testing. I don't think I'm allowed to mention too much about this bit, but I'll say it was slightly confusing at first. But apparently I passed it, so it couldn't have been that bad <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

The part I didn't pass was one of the instrument tests. There were 2 tests involving instruments Ripped through one and finished it. The other one, elementary number reading, I don't think I even did half before time ran low. I have no excuse, really. It was the only test that allowed you to guess without losing points, so I took advantage of that at the end, but it obviously didn't help. So that was it.....psychologist informed me later that the one bit took me out of the game. Shot down.

Went back to the recruiting Officer on the rebound, and he was a helluva good bloke about it. Very encouraging "You still have a very strong overall score.....you have high enough scores to do anything....else....Nav, ATC, Defence Controller,...."

What do you guys say? Go nav? Go fighter controller? I'd actually be pretty interested in those jobs just to get me in the military if I didn't have this great urge to fly airplanes. Well, if I can't do it for the country, I guess I'll be shipped off to university now, to be factory-pilot-trained. Try again in one year, then again the next. Heck, university can't be that bad in the meantime.

On the upside, I had a cheery chat with this Indian dude that had a suspicion - after telling me about the army nurse holding his boys and making him cough - that "Mebee she lyked my testiguls"

Surditas 15th Jan 2002 06:44

Sorry to hear that you didn't make it through. I didn't see your original post asking for advice but this post was quite interesting.
As to what advice, I am sure that just about everyone out there would be able to offer some ranging from "keep trying" to "give it away" depending on their point of view.
If you want to join the military and want to fly then consider joining the RAAF as a Nav or the Navy as an Observer. You get plenty of flying in some pretty decent aeroplanes (Orion, F-111, Hercules, Seahawk etc) but you would have to accept the idea that you wouldn't be at the controls. You do get to do plenty of other stuff which is pretty good eg: the Tacco more or less runs the mission on the Orion. On any of the ADF's types you will get paid pretty well, get to travel around and work as part of a team (sounds like a recruiting blurb, I know, but is essentially true).
Of course, if your plan is to join as a Nav/Obs and re-role to the Pilot category then be careful. If you have failed basic apptitude for Pilot then the RAAF can be reluctant to reassess you. I know a couple of blokes who have been Navs and have subsequently become Pilots but in both cases I think they tested well enough for Pilot but were told "we have no spots for Pilot at the moment, would you like to become a Nav and maybe transfer later?"
As for other categories, such as Air Defence Officer, you get all of the benefits of being in the Service, but you don't get to fly. If you like being airborne then don't go for AirDefendo. Of course, you can always transfer to aircrew at a later date, if that is what you want, but why not, if you really want to be aircrew, go straight to Nav?
As for going civvy and trying again later that is what I ended up doing. I passed the Pilot apptitude on my first go but was regarded as "not mature enough" by the psych. (some who know me would argue nothing has changed <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> ) I kept on going back and annoying them until they would take me. It worked in the end.

Trash 'n' Navs 15th Jan 2002 09:21

Bad luck Magic. I didn't get in the first couple of attempts either but it was more to do with interview and academic results rather than test results - either way, it still sets you back.

The perenial question of joining up as anything just to get in the door....

You will get a million different responses and each one will be based on personal experience and the individuals circumstances. Here's my two cents worth and it might sound like a cop out but it really does depend on what you want to do.

Were you applying to join because you want to be a pilot (in the RAAF) or because you want to be in the RAAF (as a pilot)? Sounds weird but there is a difference. If it's the former then no job other than pilot will satisfy you and you should pursue other avenues.

If it's the latter then fill your boots. Go NAV, get paid bucket loads, get drunk in dodgy pubs in out of the way places, fly an aircraft that very few people get to fly and make some of the best mates you will ever have. You may not be the driver, but you get to go to the same places and do the same things. As Surditas said, go fly in Onions as a TACCO and you'll see and do some really interesting stuff. When you've had enough of that, get promoted up the ranks to staff/executive duties or get out and pursue a lucrative career in a profession of your choice. (You will cop banter from everyone for being a NAV but that's part of it - just enjoy the game).

Talk to as many people as you can in the other categories to get their opinion and find out what it's like.

One thought, did you ask the Recruiting Officer if it would be possible to resit the test again next year or does it rule you out indefintely?

Not an easy decision but take your time and be happy with whatever you decide.

[ 15 January 2002: Message edited by: Trash 'n' Navs ]</p>

Cougar 15th Jan 2002 10:29

Unlucky my friend. But its not the end of the world. A year is not a long time if you can sit it again. Go for it I say.

As for other jobs in the ADF, i must say that it is a fantastic environment (most of the time <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> ) and i would have a look at other slots. We are screaming for Air Defendo's at the moment, and if you joined now, by the time you got through if you went ADFA, we will have the new AWACS and you WILL be aircrew. Depends as the others said whether you solely want to fly or if doing something else in the aircraft would make you happy. I personally would never touch nav or air defense as i think it would frustrate me to death.

However, i would think about Navy Observer. Do the same course as RAAF Nav's at Sale. However, the guys and gals get trained as TACCO eventually and sit front left and run the show. This is where we are going, this is where i want my sonobuoys dropped, this is our plan to get the sub etc. They actually do some flying (incase ye olde pilot gets cracked somehow) so it is an avenue to think about.

Pig Weapon System Officers (Navs) get to do a certain amount of 'pole time' (flying) i believe too. Someone want to confirm this please?

Air Traffic interests me personally and i reckon it would be an exceptionally rewarding job. Can get trained to do the Parachute course and get static lined into hot spots, then setup Air Traffic systems there. Pretty darn cool i reckon.

So to sum up, i reckon see if you can do them again in a year, look at other RAAF/Navy aircrew jobs if the military appeals. But in the end, if you really only want to be a pilot and it doesn't happen, then i reckon don't go for another slot as it would only make you frustrated. Hope this helps,

Hornetboy 16th Jan 2002 07:31

Thanks a whole heap guys. You all gave really helpful advice. All seemed to have overlapping advice, so I'm definitely not going to ignore any of it. I'll address all your statements personally first.

Surditas, I was actually very cautious about joining as nav and trying to go pilot from there, thanks to all the warnings I've heard on this forum. The recuiting Officer tried to extinguish those doubts, but I guess it's one of those things where it's a different situation for everyone, and you just need to take a risk to see whether you'd be able to get the change. I don't think it'd be a wise thing for me to take that risk going in. So if I go nav, I'd have to be confident I can live the life of a nav. I hope you don't mind me asking, but if it's not too personal, can you share with us exactly why they judged you not mature enough? And how long you had to wait, once failed, to resit that interview? Feel free to email me if you don't want the world to know <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Trash 'n' Navs, you make bein a nav sound like an attractive option. I'll see if I can find a RAAF nav to talk to. (Looking at the name, are you one yourself?? In that case....) To answer your question, I can resit the aptitude tests again in 12 months, fortunately. But I'm quite interested in what portion of your interview and which of your academic results the ADF originally found unsatisfactory? Once again, feel free to to email if it's public enough for me to know, but private enough for the rest of the world not to <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Just so you guys know, I'm not asking these personal questions cos I'm a nosey little guy, I'm asking so I know what to look out for. I'm also sending a letter up to Canberra to ask for my results, so hopefully I can see what my weaknesses were, work on them throughout the year, and do better if and when I go back for round two.

Finally, Cougar, I remember you from the last thread. Thanks man. Trouble with ATC or Defence Controller is the amount of stress plus likely ground time. Navy nav - my recruiter enthusiastically endorsed doing that in helicopters, and I remember the thought flashing through my mind, "Not only will I be in the Navy, but I'll be in rotaries, and not only will I be in choppers, but I won't be a pilot...". Pig nav - now that's one that doesn't sound too bad. I get to be aircrew in RAAF, and from what I know, the navs in pigs do most of the work, and the pilots are reduced to drivers (which is a whole lot of fun in a fighter!). Still though....

Well guys, the recurring question seems to be, as Trash puts it, "Were you applying to join because you want to be a pilot (in the RAAF) or because you want to be in the RAAF (as a pilot)?"

Two days later, I'm back up on my feet and actually considering going NAV or Intelligence. But to tell you the truth, I've had a taste of stick time and it'd be very hard to step back. The fact is, I love the military, but I'm essentially a pilot. And as Cougar says, "if you really only want to be a pilot and it doesn't happen, then i reckon don't go for another slot as it would only make you frustrated".

I'll keep my options open and see how far I can get if I go nav or intel, but even if offered a position, there'd be a lot of thinking to do. Chances are, I'll take a year of uni, practice the hell out of my instrument flying, then try again for pilot, and only pilot. I'll try as many times as they'll let me. Even if I'm an airline Captain when they finally accept me, I'll take Air Force flying over anything, any day.

Thanks again for all your help guys. Any more tips you've got, I'll take anything. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

scran 16th Jan 2002 08:05

Been in the RAAF for 26 years, worked as an ATC at Williamtown, Butterworth (Malaysia), Darwin, Williamtown again, ATC Instructor, then ATC Executive at Amberley and Pearce.

Don't worry about stress!!!

Having said that.....either/any option is a good one I think!!! It's really up to you!

Surditas 16th Jan 2002 10:44


It is going back a few years now but when I first applied to join the RAAF I was just finishing high school and had done not much with my life except finish high school. As I said before, I passed my pilot aptitude test but the psych was alarmed by my "...lack of life experience" and unsure how I would react in a military environment. So much for the military making a man of you, eh? I went back a year later and same story.
It was then that I joined the Army Reserve. I had a great time in the reserves and ended up as a Lieutenant. I went back to the RAAF and was able to demonstate my affinity for the military. This was about five years after I first applied, so you can see i was nothing if not determined.
So, you can see that being refused entry is not the end of the world and that you can work on aspects of your character that they may find insufficient.
It is good that they will let you resit the testing in the future. There should be no problems with finding out exactly where you went wrong and if they want to see you back then they believe that you can improve.
Best of luck with the future and keep trying. It really is worth it. Whatever category you end up in you will make some great mates, go to some interesting places and do things that your mates from school in their nine-to-fivers can only dream about or pay huge amounts of money to do.

Trash 'n' Navs 16th Jan 2002 12:05


Bit about me then I'll start slapping you around the head for thinking about going Intel!!

My grades out of High School were on the average side (C's in the old language) and like Surditas I lacked a bit of life experience. I applied straight out of school and got the hint the second time. I went off, got myself a job that paid well, experienced life and achieved my PPL with around 100hours before I re-applied (about 5 years after leaving school). Jagged it for a spot and haven't looked back.

You're not the first person to miss out the first time. I was on course with guys who'd tried 5-6 times before being successful. Don't let the first knock put you off - they'll be looking for that. Stay true to yourself and give it another go next year. VERY good plan to get your results and see where you tripped up. Everyone I know was keen to join the RAAF and it's hard not to think "****** it, I'll just join as a xxxxx and get my foot in the door.". I'd recommend you take the year to enjoy life, maybe even do some study, but better to start flying yourself. Even if you only get 20 hours up, it shows your keen and motivated then you can try again next year.

As for Intel.... what can I say.... you must be JOKING! Never a stranger breed has there been. They look at the tea leaves and tell you that tomorrow, the sun will rise in the west. When it naturally rises in the east, they'll tell you that there had been no indicators that it would do so and predict that tomorrow, it will rise in the west but they couldn't rule out it rising in the east. Apart from their random musings, the career path is pretty flat and you spend a lot of time in dark rooms hidden away from the rest of the world. Go Nav, go AirDefendo but I wouldn't suggest Intel. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

BTW, Trash 'n Navs refers to what I do not what I am... :)

Hornetboy 17th Jan 2002 18:11

Thanks again for the replies guys. Relief to know I'm not the only one shot down on first try.

Scran....uhhh.....don't worry about stress? bout 16 months ago I went for work experience up at East Sale. Visited the control tower...climbed the ladder to find a group of entirely cheery, normal lookin' lads up there.....well, almost entirely.

"....And right here is the boss. The man that runs the show from up here...." The 7 or so of us looked over to a huddled, hunched over man. His arms, with elbows atop the desk, were curled around either side of his head - which, from what I remember, didn't have many hairs left - blocking his ears, while he stared at a few pieces of paper as if he'd just spotted his name on a nazi death-list. Scary stuff I tell ya.

Surditas, talk about motivation. That's pretty impressive. "Life experience" huh? Well I can tell ya that in my short life I've probably squeezed in a fair bit of experience. I'm applying for other Officer positions now, so hopefully the kind lady who tests my sanity will inform me if I still lack life experience before I have another shot at Pilot next year. (That is, if I don't end up as something else) Thanks again very very much for the encouragement.

Trash, I can't help but wonder why you endorsed navs for me. Were u planning on notching another one on the board? hehe Thanks for the encouragement though. But you're also starting to scare me about this "lack of life experience" thing. By the way, my average out of high school is somewhere between an A and an A+, and I have just under 50 hours flight time, and that includes an aerobatic endorsement. (Just wish my last instrument flight wasn't about 9 months before RAAF testing)

Funny you suggested both nav and air defendo, as I've put down those two choices in that exact order. Decided against intel once I learnt they didn't have Direct Entry Intel Officer available, and I sure don't want to go ADFA. So there, I'm not gonna be one of them tea-leaf dudes. As I already mentioned, I'll see how far I can get with the other positions, but if actually accepted, I'd have a fair bit of considering to do before signing the dotted line. Uni and more life experience is more likely to be the way to go this year.

Thanks a whole bunch to all you guys that have been so helpful. As always, I'm open to any more.

scran 18th Jan 2002 05:27


He is a bad example!!!! (In fact, if it was who I suspect it was, he joined prior to me, is a couple of years older than me, and promoted well after me!)

Best of luck with your application in the future. WHile I know a couple of Guys who were Navs and later became pilots (CO 1 SQN and CO 37 SQN) I'd expect they may be a special breed (I know both reasonably well).

Be a devil and hang in there for Pilot...because if that's what you really want...you will get it (or at least that's the attitude you should - and appear to - have!).

My 16yo Daughter is determined to go to ADFA, Fly Hornets (Yes..no female fighter pilots now..but why not in the 6 or so years till she finishes High School and ADFA), then fly the Shuttle and end up going to Mars!

I tell you that because that is her dream, and she is determined to make it happen.

If your dream is to fly for the RAAF, (to borrow a Navy saying)......MAKE IT SO!!!!!

Good Luck!

Hornetboy 18th Jan 2002 11:55

Thanks Scran. I hope you know that I mean no offense about ATC's, it's just not something I see myself doing. Too bad about the bald guy <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

I also hope not to be a bearer of bad news, but your daughter may not be the first lady flying Aussie hornets. I read a newspaper article saying there are currently a couple of girls in the hornet training pipeline. Still, she will be a trail-blazer. And there are few people you can respect more than females who can hold their own in the air and on the ground as military pilots. Do tell her that women prefer Venus rather than Mars though <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

And yeah, I'm hangin onto my dream. Hell yeah.

Cougar 18th Jan 2002 17:03

As far as i am aware no female has ever passed Hornet OCU, and there are none at 79, 76 or OCU now in the running.

No reason why not, just never been done. Have had pig pilot though.

Rene Rivkin 20th Jan 2002 06:58

Magic, you are already 80% of the way there since you have been given the ok for further selection as Nav aircrew, do have a personality, and can spell !

If you want to be a military pilot though, you need to show a big big motivation level for that during the selection process. It qualitatively adds to your overall rating regardless of your test results. The reason is that if you hit hard times on Course then that may be all that carries you through regardless of how well your test/interview/profile results were at the start.
For that reason you shouldn't join as something else to get your foot in the door as there are other ways, or be wavey about career streams.
So, if you get offered Nav, EngO, ATC, or anything else just treat it like an offer to join Army Catering and tell them politely thanks but you will reapply later for Pilot after you learn and do a few more things to raise your suitability, then go out and do just that.
On your application form, write 'Pilot', then draw a line to the bottom of the page !

If your written tests let you down, then get hold of similar tests and practice or get someone to make up some (a lot) based on what you have seen, and practice them.
Apply for non Government jobs that may have similar tests and use their selection procedure as more practice.
Find out which Uni's etc run HR and psychology courses that may include this type of selection/testing then go through their libraries to see what you can find.
Stay in contact with people going through the selection process (too late now this time ?) and get your own little syndicate of like-minded people so you can compare notes - everyone will pick up separate ideas. Some people want to run their own race on the belief they will grease in so good luck to them.
The Internet would be a good info source if you do enough searching.

The best source of information will be the Recruiting Officer who is handling your application. I would preface any enquiry by telling him its now Pilot or nothing (except civvy pilot once you are too old to reapply).
On that point, you should find out if you can have 'too many' civvy flying hours, if success takes a while and you plunge into a civvy flying career. If you do and go bush, you will rack up 500 hours with a couple of years.
Remember that the Recruiting Officer is employed by the ADF to fill slots on training courses with people who will pass and then rip into the job, not to get everyone into the job they really want. If he/she needs (eg.) Navy Observers more than RAAF Pilots and thinks you wouldn't mind and could do it, then expect the big sales pitch.

Don't go IntelO if you want to be aircrew.
Trash n'Navs has his own view <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> on Spooks, based on being receiving intel products so that he can safely go out and about in his Herc ! The other parts of the intel process are a lot more interesting than assessments of the % chance of some disaffected local digging a concealed C130-nosewheel width hole to a certain depth, before Friday 1300Z, in some airfield in a foreign land !
The actual reason to avoid Int is that the ADF may be unwilling to later send you in harms way (ever..) if you have a head full of Int training and material. If you get captured you will end up telling them the lot - its not TV.

In your reply to Cougar you mentioned stress as an ATC - it shouldn't be a consideration since an ATC can hand over to some else if everyone is talking to him at once, whereas a pilot can hand over nothing when everyone is shooting at him !
Stress and patience during the selection process ? Lets just say that not everything will be all that it seems... this is so that they get to see you at no notice under big personal stress or perhaps under none at all, and rightly so. Cups of tea and biscuits will end at some point. Its 'depth' not 'technique' that will get you past this - and that means life experience - enough said and you work out the rest.

Surditas's five year path through the Army Reserve and back to the RAAF is a good example of the time frame and content of a Plan B (!) to make your self a very good bet for a Wings Parade.
At the moment you are looking at 12 months to the next selection and regard that as some sort of timeframe, so perhaps you are trying to fit everything into those 12 months. Don't.
What is the real objective - to be a RAAF pilot or to hammer away, year by year, at the selection process ? Remember that 50% of people who get on Course don't pass it - you have to have what it takes to pass the selection process AND the Pilots Course AND OCU. Take your time and pack in enough content to overkill any barriers, both internal and external, to these objectives. Maybe years not months but what do you want ?

Reserve service is excellent because you see the Military, and it sees you and writes eval reports about you. You also get to know people who can help you along later, but no, don't become Rudolf the Brown Nosed Reindeer - that won't help...
Get into a proper Reserve unit with proper roles and tasks - and the indicators of that will be the unit telling you that they need to see you for X number of days per year which will be a lot more than the advertised minimum, plus that they will expect you to do some full time unit courses with no days away. The more courses the better - that all produce course reports that will follow you forever and testify to your abilities.

What other contact can you have with the RAAF ? I did a lot of gliding at a RAAF Gliding Club, and the things I learned there about selection, courses, plus the refs from the RAAF guys who were instructors were invaluable., eg., other applicants had refs from KFC; I had a ref from a RAAF Pilot who had done a tour as a senior instructor at Pearce. The point though, is that I genuinely wanted to be in a RAAF Gliding Club, not to be in a position to have someone slide a good reference into my hand.

The key point here is that you don't want to leave anything to chance or luck in the selection and training process. Don't confuse "giving it your best shot" with comprehensively positioning and configuring yourself to get into a Squadron. "Giving it your best shot" is ok for the Under 18's school footy team but it ends there.
Ten years down the track would you expect to leave the lives of the people under your command, or mission success, up to chance or luck, or accept the same from people above you ? No. Start now.
THAT is really the what this is all about, since that will be what is evaluated in the step that you haven't seen yet - the Board interview. Its this that you want to find out the most about, from the Recruiting Officer.

The selection process you have seen so far is really there only to provide a short list for the Board. You will get to front up to a couple of Pilots of Squadron Leader / Wing Commander rank.
Their job is to see if they want you working for them. They are visualising you in the units they run / used to run. Do you fit ? If you get selected then it means that you will.
As well, there will be a pysch, and Education Officer and maybe someone else. They are specialists who will look at you from their own technical points of view, for any odd bits poking out that may get in the way later.

Treat the Board as the opportunity to enter a group of people that you genuinely and confidently know are doing the things that you should be doing and living the life you should be living, not as some stressful interrogation to find all your hidden flaws and thus pronounce you a complete dud !
Regard it as being Day One in the RAAF because when you walk in that door that's where you'll be ! Remember that in the end, the job is to get rid of the other side's ORBAT and/or willingness to use it, and to have great Dining In nights, and not get military training for an airline career.

All the above posts are great, but copy down and laminate the last line in Trashy's post above.

My background ? I did/learned all the above, applied for RAAF Pilot, passed every selection test, got a Board Interview on my first go, go in, passed every ground school exam, every flying test, and gave it away half way through Peace because my fiancé was spitting the dummy and walking. In the end she was more important. Regrets ? Only about what I don't know. Army Infantry was great, after, and I did more hard yards there than I could have ever done as a knuck.

By the way, did you see the Army nurse too and do you think she compared you more favorably than the Indian's <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> ?


Regards Rene

<a href="http://www.insider_trading_is_a_bitch.com.au" target="_blank">www.insider_trading_is_a_bitch.com.au</a>

Hornetboy 20th Jan 2002 17:06

Wow that's really helpful stuff RR. Thanks a whole bunch. Printed it up for further reference. lol

First, Cougar, I'm really not sure how old that newspaper article was. I actually read it behind a glass protector at the recruiting centre, and figured it couldn't have been that old. But hey, if you're right, then it looks like both the women failed hornet training. Bummer. Do u fly hornets Cougar?

RR, unfortunately, I didn't get the opportunity to have the army nurse compare my....uhh....talents. That's the thing. I didn't even reach the medical, and I didn't get a full psychological interview, because I got cut off so early. You seemed to be quite adamant against applying for nav or anything else when I really want pilot. But I feel that even if I were to decline the positions, it would be a good learning experience. The nav medical would be similar to the pilots one, just like the nav/air defence psych interview, and OSB, if I should get that far.

I do want to be a pilot very much. But I'm applying for these other positions to....
1.) Keep my options open.
2.) See what I can learn; ie so I don't need to wait till next year's selection process before I find that I too "lack life experience", or something of the kind.

Do you think that applying for these positions with the possibility of not accepting them will greatly jeopardize my chances of becoming a pilot? For example, if I were to fail somewhere along the process, will the pilot board next year have doubts about letting me fly when I can't even be nav/air def? And if I should pass and decline, will the RAAF lose faith in my responsibility as an officer and motivation as a pilot? And obviously, if I should pass and come to accept, well....

Surditas 21st Jan 2002 10:27

It's All Magic,

Just looking at Mr Rivkin's (excellent) post and your reply. I have entered the null zone between waiting for tea in the mess and going flying so I thought I would throw in my (further) two cents worth.. .First, DO NOT apply for other categories (Nav/Airdefendo) unless you would be happy doing those jobs. The selection experience would be valuable to you (up to a point) but ADF Recruiting might be a little upset being used as a rehearsal. The recruiters, if they were any good, would pick up on the fact that your heart wasn't in it and you would probably fall short before the Board. When I was at recruiting the last time they asked me "If you don't make pilot, would you want to be a nav" I replied "nup" and they said "Stick to your guns, we are hunting for navs at the moment". I am damn glad I did stick to my guns.. .Oh, just because you can't be a nav doesn't mean you can't be a pilot. A few blokes here at the Sqn were told they "didn't have the maths" for nav, but they could be pilots.. .Back to Rene. He is spot on in saying the Board will look at you trying to imagine you in a Sqn. They will look at how socially adjusted you are (you don't have to be an extrovert: there are quiet knucks and rowdy trashies), how you deal with setbacks, how you deal with stress, how well you are able to study, how stable is your home life (look at what happened to RR, on his way to jets, but had to make the big sacrifice) I was lucky: single whilst on pilot's course (although I tried to change that every Saturday night :) ) and I am very lucky to have a supportive girlfriend now. But it also what your parents think, too. If your dear old mum is terrified of you spudding in one day then that could be detrimental. The biggest thing they are looking for, though, is your grit and determination to succeed as a pilot and, to a lesser extent, as an officer. As for succeeding as a pilot, it is not just getting your wings (bloody fantastic as that is) but it is passing Hornet/Pig conversion or conversion onto another type, working as part of a crew if your aeroplane comes so equipped and progressing to captaincy in a reasonable time if you don't go fast jets.. .Ideally, they want all of the above, plus someone who will stay on in the RAAF for as long as possible. I am early in my RAAF flying career and want to stay in as long as I can. I don't especially want to rise to be CAF, but I do like the flying we do and I love the camaraderie and the feeling of belonging to an organisation that does something worthwhile.. .If you decide to join the Reserves like I did and Rene R did after leaving the RAAF, do, as he suggested, join an arms (fighting) corps. You will get a taste of the operational end of the military as well as having a great time. Infantry would be my first choice, followed by tanks thence guns (artillery). Me, I was in (RR will s******) RASIGS (Signal Corps) which was basically taking radios and computers into the bush. I did all the infantry stuff in officer training. It was bloody hard work, but really rewarding. If the RAAF hadn't of happened for me I was going to transfer to infantry or go Sig Commandos. Reserves are not for everyone, but it worked for me.. .What happened to me after recruiting?. .Did Officer Training School at Point Cook (a doddle after the Army) then headed over to Pearce for the flying bit. I wanted (and still do) to become a Pig driver, but I was a bit hot and cold on pilot's course doing some things really well and others not so well. The flying itself was fantastic: aeros, low level, formation really cool, cool stuff that you can do as a civvy pilot, but it costs you heaps of money. The instructors were all professional and the all of us on course became good mates. Having my wings pinned on was one of the best days of my life. I ended up flying the Draggie in Sale and got my initial captaincy last year. It ain't jets, (and I am still trying to get there) but we do low level, formation and other fun stuff, just not, obviously, aerobatics.. .My advice in a nutshell? Find out precisely where you went wrong, identify what you can do to fix it, fix it and reapply as a pilot. I they turn you away, try again etc until they tell you that you are not suitable. If that is the case, apply for nav, or Airdenfo, or ATC. Keep in mind that the selection board is not really something you can rehearse for too much. If you are right for the job then they will accept you.

2muchROSO 21st Jan 2002 20:31

Mate,. .There was a guy on my pilots course (167!!!) that applied 7 times and went through the whole testing process. All is say is try try and try again... determination is a quality they are looking for.... .Good luck, and it is the best job around.

Cougar 22nd Jan 2002 10:35

No magic, i am not a knuck. Wouldn't mind getting as ride tho... anyone???

Trash 'n' Navs 22nd Jan 2002 11:03

Magic, two things:

1 - MMSBGTST. Mustard Mud S**t or Blood just Grit your Teeth and Stay There. You learn it on PLT's course and it works. DO NOT give up - ever. Well, maybe when they take your medical off you....

2 - Don't apply for any position in the RAAF thinking it will impress a Recruiting Officer. As said above, they have a job to do for the ADF and they will fill holes wherever and whenever they can. Their priority is to RonnieRAAF not you. I have heard some horror stories about what people have been told about changing category after joining up.

As RR said, walk away, fix what needs fixing, do whatever you need to do to make you competitive THEN reapply. It shows more about you as a person than butting your head against a wall every year or settling for second best.


2muchROSO, was that Crash? Drop us a line...

[ 22 January 2002: Message edited by: Trash 'n' Navs ]</p>

2muchROSO 22nd Jan 2002 12:45

Trash, . .it was Franky....(the voices!!!) If you don't know he got scrubbed half way through... bit of a "different guy", but at least he got a stab at it!

Trash 'n' Navs 23rd Jan 2002 11:21


Yeah "different" is the word. Never forgive him for relieving his bladder on the back seat!!!

Hornetboy 23rd Jan 2002 16:44

Just a quick thank you message to Surditas and Trash in particular for the helpful, lengthy advice. Been really busy (and lacking a lot of sleep this week) so I'll finish this off later, but thought I should take the effort to thank you ASAP for helping me out so much. Hope you get your ride cougar! Thanks also to 2muchROSO.....that was encouraging.....well.....the first part to the story anyway <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Anyway, will come back to say more soon. By the way I got my number one and two university and TAFE positions I applied for, and my number one college. It's for commercial flying, but at this stage that's the best I can do. So pretty happy. I had to find out from my friend as she was congratulating me because she actually had the time to read the paper!!

franksnbeans 24th Jan 2002 04:02


I was dicked on the medical, but was told by recruiting that if you want to reapply, you only have another two tries(?).


Hornetboy 25th Jan 2002 17:22

Phew! Tough week. Thanks so much once again to the guys who have given me all that advice. Look this has been so helpful, and I appreciate every single contributor. I still have a fair bit of thinking to do, and I'll have to have another chat to my recruiting Off before I make up my mind. I know, with every pound of flesh in my body, that I want to be a RAAF pilot, but I'm in a unique situation right now, with a lot of external considerations/responsibilities to keep in mind, on top of those mentioned. I hope to God I make the right decisions somehow. Thanks to you all, and feel free to email me any time, for anything. You guys are great.

Good luck franksandbeans. That's two more golden chances for ya. And RR, man....I don't know what to say. You really loved the girl huh.

Barry Murphy 24th Jul 2002 20:31

Australian Anthro limits

Does anyone know the Anthro limits for the RAAF? Such as buttock-knee length and sitting height. Any response would be great!

hueywsh 24th Jul 2002 21:56

Mate, if memory serves me correctly it is no taller than 100cm sitting height, that is for aircrew. I think if you have a look at www.defencejobs.gov.au that should help you out with all the other info you need.


Low-Pass 25th Jul 2002 10:16

Max sitting Height of 100cm and Max Height of 193cm from memory. Weight min. 50kg (for ejector seats) but has to be in proportion to height.

Cheers, LP

Elvis the Spot King 2nd Nov 2002 23:40

ADF pilot: Year 12 English waiver
I have to write a submission with my application to show that my subjects studied at uni meet the Yaer 12 English requirement for entry to the ADF. Has anyone on this forum had to do this, or know anyone who has successfully done this? Any advice or help would be appreciated.

bigdog1971 3rd Nov 2002 05:43

Mate, I am a Australian Army pilot and although I had completed y12 English, I had not done the req'd physics subjects. I was granted a waiver due to my trade training in physics. I have assisted a number of people trying to become ADF pilots (im assuming that you are trying to be a pilot) and I know that all applications are looked at, and providing you can show that you have had a good level of further training after school, in all cases waivers were given. The entry requirements are only a guide (mostly to stop bums wasting recruitings time).
However the aircrew medical is very strict.
Most of all dont take every word of a recruiting officer as gospel. These people are placed in recruiting positions with little or no training, & through no fault of their own cannot be expected to know every aspect of another corp! Unless you are very lucky and have a Aviation officer in your area!
Best of luck:cool:

oldpinger 3rd Nov 2002 22:48

Concur to some degree with Bigdog about believing the recruiter,so why don't you get it straight from the horses mouth(s) and organise a visit to your local aviation base and talk to the aircrew about it all, unless you are remote area oz most capital areas have a big enough place to visit, ok, maybe not Melbourne.:p

As for the english, talk to the recruiting people as they're the ones that want you, and they should help out. Drop us an email if you have no joy.

We get loads of visits here and I've seen a few of them return as aircrew, so it does help.

ps- I have no degree and managed to avoid ADFA:D

Elvis the Spot King 6th Nov 2002 03:09

Thanks guys. I should have mentioned that I am applying as a pilot in the ADF. I found the corporal at my local recruting office very helpful, although a little deficient in specific knowledge on pilot careers, he went out of his way to help me.

When I called my local base I was told I need to organize a base visit through the recruiting office. When I called recruiting, they said that I could only do a base visit when I had a test date.

You guys might be able to help me with this one. When an experienced pilot goes to flight screening, what sort of flying do they put you through? I know they put you through a different syllabus to ab-initio, but I just wanted to know what to expect.

I spoke to the recruiting people in Sydney about what should be included in the submission, I just wanted to hear what other people had included that worked for them. It's good to hear that the education requirements have some flexibility and that I'm not wasting my time.

bigdog1971 6th Nov 2002 05:02

ADF flight screaming!
Mate good to see that you are being pro active about it. Some people expect all the info to find them!.....
As far as Flight screaming goes, you would be better asking "oldpinger" as I suspect (by his profile) that you may be seeing him sometime soon face to face.? I can't comment on it as I did not go through that process when I joined up.
I see by your profile that your listed in NSW? is this still the case? if you are anywhere near Townsville I would be happy to give you look around. (although im currently in East Timor till Dec).

Good luck.

If it dont Hover.....Dont Bover

Elvis the Spot King 7th Nov 2002 02:20

Thanks bigdog. Used to fly up your way last year (beautiful Mission Beach). Now I'm back in NSW. Never know, I might end up your way again in 2 years. Good luck in East Timor and thanks for the comments.

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