Crowded Skies documentary
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Crowded Skies documentary
What are the general opinions of the BBC documentary on BBC2 at 2100 sunday 3 Aug?
I only caught the last 15 mins of it and am yet to see the rest of it on tape, but crewroom chat brought up some old bearded duffer bitching about high energy miliyary flying in the open FIR. Apparently the F3s at Leeming got a hard time.
Are they surprised to get TCAS alerts and avoiding action in known AAIAs, MTAs, MDAs????
With respect to MDAs in particular (North sea), they are used CONSTANTLY by the F3 fleet but can only be made active danger areas for particular sorties.
Does anyone else think that the civvie world have enough controlled airspace (forcing the military elsewhere) and if they choose to cut the corners to "cost save" then tough? I bl00dy well do.
Stick to your new double width airways and your Class A NORCA
If you choose to cut the corners, put your coffee and Telegraph down keep a good look out in Class G Airspace like everyone else and don't be surprised when VFR traffic comes within your precious 5nm and 2000ft.
Looking forward to parts 2 and 3 of the series!
Ray.
I only caught the last 15 mins of it and am yet to see the rest of it on tape, but crewroom chat brought up some old bearded duffer bitching about high energy miliyary flying in the open FIR. Apparently the F3s at Leeming got a hard time.
Are they surprised to get TCAS alerts and avoiding action in known AAIAs, MTAs, MDAs????
With respect to MDAs in particular (North sea), they are used CONSTANTLY by the F3 fleet but can only be made active danger areas for particular sorties.
Does anyone else think that the civvie world have enough controlled airspace (forcing the military elsewhere) and if they choose to cut the corners to "cost save" then tough? I bl00dy well do.
Stick to your new double width airways and your Class A NORCA
If you choose to cut the corners, put your coffee and Telegraph down keep a good look out in Class G Airspace like everyone else and don't be surprised when VFR traffic comes within your precious 5nm and 2000ft.
Looking forward to parts 2 and 3 of the series!
Ray.
Bashing the military
It did appear to be unfair to the military, especially the Fast Jet pilots. In one instance a commuter airliner was told of FJ traffic ahead and 2000ft below. He was told to 'break right now' to avoid the mil jet that decided to pull up and fly at the airliner. He then said that he didn't see the jet, nor did he know how close they had passed each other. Now I doubt very much that the military pilot deliberately aimed at the civvy aircraft, but you didn't hear his side of the story.
Maybe in the next two parts ???
Maybe in the next two parts ???
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I caught the beginning of the show and I believe it to be a couple of years old. I remember reading in some professional journal some time ago that French ATC have officially said that English is to be used in French Airspace (...dunno if that is the truth or just the official party line, having only flown into CDG as self-loading cargo)
I do know that the use of 'Quebecois' in Quebec airspace is VERY SA depleting...
Any thoughts?
I do know that the use of 'Quebecois' in Quebec airspace is VERY SA depleting...
Any thoughts?
Definately a couple of years old, had all the old radar maps and didn't mention all the new airspace changes from Mar this year. There's been a couple of threads about the civvies routing through the VoY on the ATC issues thread recently. I wouldn't go and look at the one at the mo. 4 pages of 'but surely we should have datalinks and remove the human element blah.' Yes that's a wonderful idea. How do we integrate mil and civil traffic like we do now then? Oh we don't!
Anyway, us blue-suited ATCOs have been questioning the presence of the civvies in the VoY rather than using their bright shiny airway; however, apparently as stated it's all about cost. The extra 33 nms to route GAT all the way is apparently too expensive and as the programme stated, Newcastle would lost their regular run to Amsterdam.
Anyway, us blue-suited ATCOs have been questioning the presence of the civvies in the VoY rather than using their bright shiny airway; however, apparently as stated it's all about cost. The extra 33 nms to route GAT all the way is apparently too expensive and as the programme stated, Newcastle would lost their regular run to Amsterdam.
Quite so! It works well in the USA - but how do you integrate a government run military organisation with our commercially-run 'AirTrack'?
Make all UK ATC a national government responsibility? That'd have El Gordo Brown crying his eyes out....
Make all UK ATC a national government responsibility? That'd have El Gordo Brown crying his eyes out....
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As a serving Fighter Controller I and my collegues have experianced first hand the problems that come with dealing with civilian traffic in the open FIR especially in the OTA C area north of Newcastle. We constantly try and maintain clear of traffic that insist on routeing through this area even though information is passed on a daily basis to the agencies concerned. This is often done to the detriment of the sortie been controlled as we are constantly having to ask the crews to move CAPS or take vectors to avoid traffic. In my opinion the fast jet boys are more than cooperative but there comes a time when ultimatley the rules of the air must be applied and as long as the civvies continue to route their aircraft in this fashion it is something they will have to put up with!!!
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Yes the programme did point the finger a bit.
But the open FIR is supposed to be available to everyone - it is not a military only area. Of course that is heresy in this forum where the world only exists because of grey coloured machines.
Yes with scheduled traffic not flying in the airways, conflict is pretty inevitable.
I certainly hope everyone tries very hard - because if a FJ ever collides with a scheduled flight, the one certainty is that the RAF will be doing a lot more flying in Canada and virtually none here.
Light aircraft pilots have come to terms with being unavoidable casualties from 'necessary military training'. Joe Soap and his family have not and will not.
But remember 'free flight' is coming to the US and once EUROCONTROL is sorted it will happen here. Something much more sophisicated and dare I say it co-ordinated is then going to be necessary. I'd like to think that people are already working on that, but I know they are not.
Something is going to have to alter and I rather doubt it will be more 'military only' airspace. Much more likely are the sort of restrictions that the German and Dutch airforces have to work under.
But the open FIR is supposed to be available to everyone - it is not a military only area. Of course that is heresy in this forum where the world only exists because of grey coloured machines.
Yes with scheduled traffic not flying in the airways, conflict is pretty inevitable.
I certainly hope everyone tries very hard - because if a FJ ever collides with a scheduled flight, the one certainty is that the RAF will be doing a lot more flying in Canada and virtually none here.
Light aircraft pilots have come to terms with being unavoidable casualties from 'necessary military training'. Joe Soap and his family have not and will not.
But remember 'free flight' is coming to the US and once EUROCONTROL is sorted it will happen here. Something much more sophisicated and dare I say it co-ordinated is then going to be necessary. I'd like to think that people are already working on that, but I know they are not.
Something is going to have to alter and I rather doubt it will be more 'military only' airspace. Much more likely are the sort of restrictions that the German and Dutch airforces have to work under.
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Why don't you look at the Flexible Use of airspace system implemented in some European countries, with the use of TSA (Temporary Segregated Airspace) and AMC Danger Areas (TSA's just over international waters 
)
The Airforce get to play all allone in a sector within CAS, and the CIV traffic get routed around.
Here in Norway the ultimate goal is to have all high energy manouvering (ACM etc) training inside CAS within some years. Allready this type of training is forbidden under some TSA's (class-G) due to commuter flights into uncontrolled airfields.
One such example is over the Lofoten Islands, where all flights in G under the relevant TSA have to bee performed in accordence with ICAO flight rules. This due to some very close calls between RoNoAF FJs and wait: RAF FJs in this area.
To bad the airprox reports is in norwegian only, they are scary reading.........
)The Airforce get to play all allone in a sector within CAS, and the CIV traffic get routed around.
Here in Norway the ultimate goal is to have all high energy manouvering (ACM etc) training inside CAS within some years. Allready this type of training is forbidden under some TSA's (class-G) due to commuter flights into uncontrolled airfields.
One such example is over the Lofoten Islands, where all flights in G under the relevant TSA have to bee performed in accordence with ICAO flight rules. This due to some very close calls between RoNoAF FJs and wait: RAF FJs in this area.
To bad the airprox reports is in norwegian only, they are scary reading.........
Not only are some of the 'direct' civvies cutting the corner to Newcastle singularly uncooperative, they won't even adjust their vertical profiles if it will cost them the odd kg of fuel.....
I recall doing a receiver training sortie over the North Sea. My student was wrestling with the VC10 whilst attempting to prod another when we were asked 'for co-ordination' would we please turn as a civilian aircraft under RAS wanted a direct to Newcastle. "Negative, we will continue under VFR in Class G airspace, advise the off-route civilian ac of our intentions", I told the air trafficker, "Vector him around us....!!"
It turned out to be some Fokker 50 or similar trying to save the odd few pennies by flying off-airways. If they want to do so, they should expect extensive vectoring. If they don't like it, they should stick to the damn airway structure!
I recall doing a receiver training sortie over the North Sea. My student was wrestling with the VC10 whilst attempting to prod another when we were asked 'for co-ordination' would we please turn as a civilian aircraft under RAS wanted a direct to Newcastle. "Negative, we will continue under VFR in Class G airspace, advise the off-route civilian ac of our intentions", I told the air trafficker, "Vector him around us....!!"
It turned out to be some Fokker 50 or similar trying to save the odd few pennies by flying off-airways. If they want to do so, they should expect extensive vectoring. If they don't like it, they should stick to the damn airway structure!
I haven't yet seen the proggie, it's on tape awaiting my return from working in Holland.
If by "old bearded duffer" you mean the veritable PPRuNer HugMonster, then maybe you should PM him and ask for a clarification.
If by "old bearded duffer" you mean the veritable PPRuNer HugMonster, then maybe you should PM him and ask for a clarification.
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A few years ago over the North Sea I was controlling a civillian pax ac (type and airline will remain anonymous) under a RAS. I called a FJ conflictor, offered avoiding action and the pilot called visual happy to continue - pilot is now responsible for separation against that traffic. A few moments later the FJ traffic turned towards said pax ac. traffic info was updated - still visual. A few minutes later - an airmiss was declared by said pax ac against FJ.
RAS wanted until RAS impinged upon expediency, slot times etc.
Cake and eat it rings a bell.
If you choose to fly in the open FIR with fare paying pax you must accept the responsibilities of mixing it with other traffic.
I pray we never have a nasty.
RAS wanted until RAS impinged upon expediency, slot times etc.
Cake and eat it rings a bell.
If you choose to fly in the open FIR with fare paying pax you must accept the responsibilities of mixing it with other traffic.
I pray we never have a nasty.
gasax, it's not heresy to mention that class g is open to everyone. All mil guys know that and accept it. What we are arguing against is civvy airliners, including whopping big airbuses, using the VoY as a way of cutting 33 measly nms off their route, and whingeing when they're given avoiding action because they don't understand the rules that pertain to them flying through class G. BEagle, apologies on behalf of all of us but if another air traffic unit rings and asks for coordination we have to at least try and ask you to move, even if we know that it's not particularly a great time. It used to happen a lot because Penine Radar worked all the civvy rubbish that we now work and used to phone and ask for coordination when the ac were only about 10nms apart. We now try and forward plan somewhat better so that last minute requests for turns for coordination shouldn't happen as much. How's AARA8 working out for you guys position wise by the way??
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I have to confess to being that "bearded old duffer" 
Lest someone following the thread on the ATC forum take offence, a few points of clarification on the incident in question:-
It occurred in 2001, before the update of the NORCA, before B1 got renamed (yet again), before all sorts of changes in the airspace in the region.
Since Sept 11 2001 largely did for the NCL-based operator I was flying for at the time, I have not been around that area much, so I can't comment on how much better it is now.
As for the incident itself, the culprit was NOT one of our own brave flying machine driver chappies. It was a Turkish F15 flying for the first time in UK airspace, and apparently the pilot confessed to having paid no attention at brifing time on the rules of the air in the UK. He was just having fun. Apparently he saw me at the last moment and stuffed everything in a corner at the same time as I was trying to feed all the gin and tonics into the sidewall aircon outlets.
Those in blue suits who know me know that I condemn poor professionalism wherever I see it - whichever side of the civvie/mil or skyjock/blippusher divide it occurs. I am very well aware of some extremely professional mil pilots around. I am also aware of a (very) few cowboys. The same happens in civvy street.
As I say, I can't comment on how much extra sticking to airways (where available) would add to most routes out of NCL nowadays. In those days it would have been completely uneconomical.
There are, of course, still a significant number of civil airports out there with little or no access to airways.
This Sunday's programme should be interesting as well.
Lest someone following the thread on the ATC forum take offence, a few points of clarification on the incident in question:-
It occurred in 2001, before the update of the NORCA, before B1 got renamed (yet again), before all sorts of changes in the airspace in the region.
Since Sept 11 2001 largely did for the NCL-based operator I was flying for at the time, I have not been around that area much, so I can't comment on how much better it is now.
As for the incident itself, the culprit was NOT one of our own brave flying machine driver chappies. It was a Turkish F15 flying for the first time in UK airspace, and apparently the pilot confessed to having paid no attention at brifing time on the rules of the air in the UK. He was just having fun. Apparently he saw me at the last moment and stuffed everything in a corner at the same time as I was trying to feed all the gin and tonics into the sidewall aircon outlets.
Those in blue suits who know me know that I condemn poor professionalism wherever I see it - whichever side of the civvie/mil or skyjock/blippusher divide it occurs. I am very well aware of some extremely professional mil pilots around. I am also aware of a (very) few cowboys. The same happens in civvy street.
As I say, I can't comment on how much extra sticking to airways (where available) would add to most routes out of NCL nowadays. In those days it would have been completely uneconomical.
There are, of course, still a significant number of civil airports out there with little or no access to airways.
This Sunday's programme should be interesting as well.
People reading this thread may wish to read this gentlemans less than polite remarks about mil pilots and controllers on the ATC issues forum. Let's say that his comments here are rather toned down and some might say opposite from what he has voiced here
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Pie Man - if you say they don't have them, then my info from the ATC unit concerned is mistaken. My apologies.
www - if you would care to email me with exactly what your accusation is, then we can discuss it.
www - if you would care to email me with exactly what your accusation is, then we can discuss it.
