CDS Vs Hoon
Civvy,
Try the Human Rights Act 1998.
This incorporates the European Convention on Human Rights into UK law. The relevant bits of the ECoHR are:
"Article 10
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.
2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary. "
And you can also stick in Articles 9 and 11, which cover such things as freedom of conscience and the right to peaceful assembly.
All of this was incorporated (with the usual caveats about seeking exemptions from certain parts of the Convention) into UK law in November 1998.
Try the Human Rights Act 1998.
This incorporates the European Convention on Human Rights into UK law. The relevant bits of the ECoHR are:
"Article 10
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.
2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary. "
And you can also stick in Articles 9 and 11, which cover such things as freedom of conscience and the right to peaceful assembly.
All of this was incorporated (with the usual caveats about seeking exemptions from certain parts of the Convention) into UK law in November 1998.
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Well there you go Civilian…. Archimedes has given you the law; now hold true to your word, and leave…. Thanks!
And ORAC…. That was a wonderful quote…. Something for us all to think about….
Happy landings
Grob Driver
And ORAC…. That was a wonderful quote…. Something for us all to think about….
Happy landings
Grob Driver
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While quite entertaining, Sir Michael's obvious attempt to embarrass Geoff Hoon was, IMHO, a rather pointless exercise. It is clear that any useful working relationship between the two has broken down and I'm at a loss to know how that is supposed to benefit the armed forces. If he finds himself unable to work with his political masters (spare me the, ' But he works for The Queen' line) , then his proper course of action would be to resign.
I'm a member of the Labour Party, but I have to say that Geoff Hoon really isn't one of the Labour Movement's intellectual gems:
Denis Healey, Nye Bevan, Ernie Bevin, Tony Crosland, Barbara Castle, Roy Jenkins, Gordon Brown - and Geoff...arrrrrsssse! The pictures next to Admiral Boyce were just embarrassing - Hoon didn't just look thick, he looked like a syphilitic royal courtier into the bargain.
Denis Healey, Nye Bevan, Ernie Bevin, Tony Crosland, Barbara Castle, Roy Jenkins, Gordon Brown - and Geoff...arrrrrsssse! The pictures next to Admiral Boyce were just embarrassing - Hoon didn't just look thick, he looked like a syphilitic royal courtier into the bargain.
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A Civilian
Having just watched a programme on TV showing a group of Falklands war veterans revisiting the Island in an attempt to exorcise their continual nightmarish memories of the conflict I find your pride in plain speaking and comments particularily offensive. I too have the memory of meeting many of the Welsh Guards as they returned home from their "Flag Waving" and the dramatic effect of the Sir Gallahad disaster was all too plain to see. This is a forum for those who are or have been actively involved in operating military aviation, I don't think you are welcome or, come to that, have earned a place in such company.
Having just watched a programme on TV showing a group of Falklands war veterans revisiting the Island in an attempt to exorcise their continual nightmarish memories of the conflict I find your pride in plain speaking and comments particularily offensive. I too have the memory of meeting many of the Welsh Guards as they returned home from their "Flag Waving" and the dramatic effect of the Sir Gallahad disaster was all too plain to see. This is a forum for those who are or have been actively involved in operating military aviation, I don't think you are welcome or, come to that, have earned a place in such company.
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Sorry, steamchicken, you can't have Barbara Castle as a paragon.
Folks of my vintage will never forgive her for the way she laid into the British Forces in Cyprus who, with their famiies, were being targeted by Eoka terrorists during the 50s.
She supported the accusations of brutality by our troops in the same way that other tree-huggers have done. Her political ambitions knew no bounds.
She didn't have the benefit of Fr O'Brien's homily.
(edited)
This link is to a contemporary essay on the topic:
Eoka in Cyprus
...and this is an extract from it:
"The boycott and noncooperation with the British were ruthlessly enforced by EOKA. In reprisal for the alleged ill-treatment of Greek suspects by British troops, EOKA began to attack British civilians as well as soldiers. The murder in Famagusta of Mrs Cutliffe, the wife of a British soldier (for which EOKA denied responsibility), led to reprisals by British troops. Scores of Greek Cypriot men in the town were beaten while being rounded up for questioning. One man was killed and many others injured. Throughout the island at that time at least two thousand Cypriots were under detention and many thousands more subject to total house curfew, forbidden to leave their houses by night or day."
Killing unsuspecting innocent civilians is not a new trick of terrorists.
fob
Folks of my vintage will never forgive her for the way she laid into the British Forces in Cyprus who, with their famiies, were being targeted by Eoka terrorists during the 50s.
She supported the accusations of brutality by our troops in the same way that other tree-huggers have done. Her political ambitions knew no bounds.
She didn't have the benefit of Fr O'Brien's homily.
(edited)
This link is to a contemporary essay on the topic:
Eoka in Cyprus
...and this is an extract from it:
"The boycott and noncooperation with the British were ruthlessly enforced by EOKA. In reprisal for the alleged ill-treatment of Greek suspects by British troops, EOKA began to attack British civilians as well as soldiers. The murder in Famagusta of Mrs Cutliffe, the wife of a British soldier (for which EOKA denied responsibility), led to reprisals by British troops. Scores of Greek Cypriot men in the town were beaten while being rounded up for questioning. One man was killed and many others injured. Throughout the island at that time at least two thousand Cypriots were under detention and many thousands more subject to total house curfew, forbidden to leave their houses by night or day."
Killing unsuspecting innocent civilians is not a new trick of terrorists.
fob
Last edited by fobotcso; 26th Nov 2002 at 21:54.
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Civvy,
the longer this forum drags on, the more and more I am seriously concerned by the state of your mental health
Are you really serious in your comments, or are you simply using this opportunity to show the rest of us how utterly fu**ing stupid you are?
The replies from the Grob driver, Mr Farley, Archimedes and the outstanding quote from the ORAC clearly show you what the general feeling is regarding your comments.
Are you getting the message yet? or are you just an ignorant fool who gets his kicks out of making pathetic comments about our armed forces?
As Grob Driver states several entries ago, get a life and Foxtrot Oscar you Muppet. (That means go away to you!)
ORAC, that was a hell of a quotation, thanks. I will remember it for ever, thank you.
Civvy, I do hope you go away. This is a sensible forum for sensible people. If you are not up to it, then do us all a favour and leave. I am sure that Liverpool has a nursery that can find you a place. Or maybe a secure hospital eh?
Kind regards (as always)
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, this Civvy is still being an Arse, do kick him a great deal harder, theres a good chap!'
the longer this forum drags on, the more and more I am seriously concerned by the state of your mental health
Are you really serious in your comments, or are you simply using this opportunity to show the rest of us how utterly fu**ing stupid you are?
The replies from the Grob driver, Mr Farley, Archimedes and the outstanding quote from the ORAC clearly show you what the general feeling is regarding your comments.
Are you getting the message yet? or are you just an ignorant fool who gets his kicks out of making pathetic comments about our armed forces?
As Grob Driver states several entries ago, get a life and Foxtrot Oscar you Muppet. (That means go away to you!)
ORAC, that was a hell of a quotation, thanks. I will remember it for ever, thank you.
Civvy, I do hope you go away. This is a sensible forum for sensible people. If you are not up to it, then do us all a favour and leave. I am sure that Liverpool has a nursery that can find you a place. Or maybe a secure hospital eh?
Kind regards (as always)
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, this Civvy is still being an Arse, do kick him a great deal harder, theres a good chap!'
Civvy: Re your profile, is radio controlled aircraft your only experience of aviation, mil or civ?
I find it funny thinking of you standing, probably dressed in a grobag you bought from Transair pilot shop with 'authentic' RAF wings, on a windswept field somewhere in the Wirral, putting the world to rights with the other 'Sunday sky-warriors'!
Do you think you are qualified to post here?
I find it funny thinking of you standing, probably dressed in a grobag you bought from Transair pilot shop with 'authentic' RAF wings, on a windswept field somewhere in the Wirral, putting the world to rights with the other 'Sunday sky-warriors'!
Do you think you are qualified to post here?
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You Sir are an Arse
Civilian, I have witnessed your comments on this forum for some time now and so far have managed not to waste my time in replying to you. You have gone too far now.
Your comments in this thread are an insult to all serving military personnel and their families. You are ill informed. You seem to have no real reason to be posting here. Please ****** off.
I propose from now on any posts by this gimp are ignored.
Your comments in this thread are an insult to all serving military personnel and their families. You are ill informed. You seem to have no real reason to be posting here. Please ****** off.
I propose from now on any posts by this gimp are ignored.
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Are you guys trying to tell me something
That you all hate me? is that it?
Well thats to bad.
If you want to stick your heads in the sand and pretend that your doing this job for queen and country and not for uncle sam then thats fine by me.
Training Risky::
Alas, I havent been flying in years. I have 3 planes, ones in pieces in my loft, ones in pieces in my shed and ones in pieces in my garage. Im a third generation radio control plane flyer so please dont insult my hobby. My grandfather flew them in the 1940s my father in the 60's and me in the 90's so in total we probably have more flight experience than you
*edit:: the way that came out sounded like he was in the BoB or something*
In 30 years you'll be just like me. There wont be any piloted planes anymore just A Civilian Junior sitting in a simulator 400 miles behind the lines. Your looking at the future here.
That you all hate me? is that it?
Well thats to bad.
If you want to stick your heads in the sand and pretend that your doing this job for queen and country and not for uncle sam then thats fine by me.
Training Risky::
Alas, I havent been flying in years. I have 3 planes, ones in pieces in my loft, ones in pieces in my shed and ones in pieces in my garage. Im a third generation radio control plane flyer so please dont insult my hobby. My grandfather flew them in the 1940s my father in the 60's and me in the 90's so in total we probably have more flight experience than you
*edit:: the way that came out sounded like he was in the BoB or something*
In 30 years you'll be just like me. There wont be any piloted planes anymore just A Civilian Junior sitting in a simulator 400 miles behind the lines. Your looking at the future here.
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Civvy,
Three points: Firstly, the UAV debate is a valid one and I doubt that anyone here would fail to acknowledge that they will play an ever larger part in military aviation. However, few would be so crass as to believe that there will not still be a need for an airborne decision maker in many areas.
Secondly, whilst not wishing to belittle anyone's pastime, I'm afraid that if all that you, your father and your grandfather have flown is toys, then you have zero flight experience - nothing. Please do not delude yourself that you have acquired any of the skills and airmanship required to be aircrew yourself.
Thirdly, what insanity makes you think that you have the right or the wisdom to tell us why we serve our country? It is a personal decision made in good conscience by high calibre individuals for their own reasons. At the risk of sounding like Jack Nicholson, if you have the courage and the ability to make that commitment then take a weapon and stand at post. If not take your drivel elsewhere until you have something intelligent to contribute.
Three points: Firstly, the UAV debate is a valid one and I doubt that anyone here would fail to acknowledge that they will play an ever larger part in military aviation. However, few would be so crass as to believe that there will not still be a need for an airborne decision maker in many areas.
Secondly, whilst not wishing to belittle anyone's pastime, I'm afraid that if all that you, your father and your grandfather have flown is toys, then you have zero flight experience - nothing. Please do not delude yourself that you have acquired any of the skills and airmanship required to be aircrew yourself.
Thirdly, what insanity makes you think that you have the right or the wisdom to tell us why we serve our country? It is a personal decision made in good conscience by high calibre individuals for their own reasons. At the risk of sounding like Jack Nicholson, if you have the courage and the ability to make that commitment then take a weapon and stand at post. If not take your drivel elsewhere until you have something intelligent to contribute.
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Civvie,
your ill-informed comments disgust, dissapoint, but don't surprise.
The state-controlled media (believe it) have done a good job in keeping the public suitably ignorant of the funding/equipment/manning crisis within the armed forces, and their impact on our capability.
The net result is that pink bodies are placed at increased risk to achieve the same goal. 'Acceptable', since TC Blair is prepared to 'Pay with Blood'. Hurrah!! We always get the job done, mainly a triumph of commitment and professionalism, over all the odds. 'Best armed forces in the world' my @rse, but best personnell, maybe.
We're all volunteers, doing a job we all(?) love, and feel proud of representing our country defend it's territories and interests whever that may be. Bush is quite correct in his concerns. That's why we're there. No flag waving, mate.
I'm not angry with your post, more sad that the media have allowed the public to become this ignorant. Celebrity Big Brother will get a bigger interest than any coverage of the forthcoming campaign. All part of the grand plan to mis-educate the public to such a level, that vital issues can be swept away with little concern from the voters. That's another topic, however.
CDS, top comments. TC Hoon needs to sort his life out and represent us, not destroy us.
Coup? Count me in.....
your ill-informed comments disgust, dissapoint, but don't surprise.
The state-controlled media (believe it) have done a good job in keeping the public suitably ignorant of the funding/equipment/manning crisis within the armed forces, and their impact on our capability.
The net result is that pink bodies are placed at increased risk to achieve the same goal. 'Acceptable', since TC Blair is prepared to 'Pay with Blood'. Hurrah!! We always get the job done, mainly a triumph of commitment and professionalism, over all the odds. 'Best armed forces in the world' my @rse, but best personnell, maybe.
We're all volunteers, doing a job we all(?) love, and feel proud of representing our country defend it's territories and interests whever that may be. Bush is quite correct in his concerns. That's why we're there. No flag waving, mate.
I'm not angry with your post, more sad that the media have allowed the public to become this ignorant. Celebrity Big Brother will get a bigger interest than any coverage of the forthcoming campaign. All part of the grand plan to mis-educate the public to such a level, that vital issues can be swept away with little concern from the voters. That's another topic, however.
CDS, top comments. TC Hoon needs to sort his life out and represent us, not destroy us.
Coup? Count me in.....
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Civilian, you just don't get it do you?
1. How dare you suggest you have more experience than Swinging Monkey, I don't know him but i'd wager that 3 generations of model aircraft flying will not give tha same experience.
2.
Our job is to carry out the policies of the government of the day whether we like it or not. Most of us have a personal opinion of most decisions but professsionalism and pride prevent us from voicing them if we disagree, and WE DO OUR JOB, every time.
WE ARE NOT BURYING OUR HEADS IN THE SAND; WE DO NOT HAVE THAT LUXURY. All we ask is for the public to support us when the **** starts flying.
I'm sorry to break it down to a base level but you have really
p%ssed me off, you can ram your comments up your arse.
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Civilian,
Rather than condemn you as pond-life, I would prefer to think that you are winding all of us up!
Should I be incorrect, I will continue to respect your right to express your views in a public forum. A quiet word in your shell-like though - don't express them in the pubs of Liverpool. On the other hand, please do so, and put us all out of our misery.
Rather than condemn you as pond-life, I would prefer to think that you are winding all of us up!
Should I be incorrect, I will continue to respect your right to express your views in a public forum. A quiet word in your shell-like though - don't express them in the pubs of Liverpool. On the other hand, please do so, and put us all out of our misery.
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Dear Civvie,
Thank you so much for confirming to us all that you are suffering from a disorder in the mental health department!
Your comments over the past few weeks have insulted not only myself but all of the proffessional men and women, in whose life I entrust mine too every day of the year.
Unlike yours, my aircraft is not a toy. It is a real piece of kit that requires the hard work, dedication and commitment of a great many people not only to fly it, but to maintain it as well. Its not something that comes out on a nice sunny day, that I chuck around the skies for a couple of hours and then put back in the cupboard for the rest of the week.
I have not stopped laughing since I read your comments about being a third generation radio controller. Oh Dear, I am sorry I have berated so much. I now understand that anyone who thinks that your kind of lifestyle gives him the creedance to even look at forums like this, let alone comment on them, is sadly suffering from severe mental health problems.
Nevertheless, mental dissorder does not give you the right to make outrageous comments on this forum.
I strongly urge you to cut away to your GP and ask him to certify you asap, because you truly are as mad as a sack of spanners!!
'Third generation' radio controller eh?? ha ha ha ha ha ha
I'm sorry, I just can't stop laughing!!!
I'm proud to say that I do my job for Queen and country, wherever it is, in this country or abroad, but sticking my head in the sand? and for Uncle Sam? absolutely not.
Get a life Civvie. Infact, get yourself a secure life preferably in a secure establishment, something like Rampton! They have lots of open air places where you will be able to fly your 'elastic-band-powered' weapon of war, all day long.
Leave the real flying to the big boys.
Kind regards
The swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, stop kicking this civilian now, he is not worth it anymore'
Thank you so much for confirming to us all that you are suffering from a disorder in the mental health department!
Your comments over the past few weeks have insulted not only myself but all of the proffessional men and women, in whose life I entrust mine too every day of the year.
Unlike yours, my aircraft is not a toy. It is a real piece of kit that requires the hard work, dedication and commitment of a great many people not only to fly it, but to maintain it as well. Its not something that comes out on a nice sunny day, that I chuck around the skies for a couple of hours and then put back in the cupboard for the rest of the week.
I have not stopped laughing since I read your comments about being a third generation radio controller. Oh Dear, I am sorry I have berated so much. I now understand that anyone who thinks that your kind of lifestyle gives him the creedance to even look at forums like this, let alone comment on them, is sadly suffering from severe mental health problems.
Nevertheless, mental dissorder does not give you the right to make outrageous comments on this forum.
I strongly urge you to cut away to your GP and ask him to certify you asap, because you truly are as mad as a sack of spanners!!
'Third generation' radio controller eh?? ha ha ha ha ha ha
I'm sorry, I just can't stop laughing!!!
I'm proud to say that I do my job for Queen and country, wherever it is, in this country or abroad, but sticking my head in the sand? and for Uncle Sam? absolutely not.
Get a life Civvie. Infact, get yourself a secure life preferably in a secure establishment, something like Rampton! They have lots of open air places where you will be able to fly your 'elastic-band-powered' weapon of war, all day long.
Leave the real flying to the big boys.
Kind regards
The swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, stop kicking this civilian now, he is not worth it anymore'
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Civvy, well done, you've 'wah'd' us all. I've just been reading some of your previous posts on others forums. It seams you are anti Royal / military and the only reason you post is to get a rise, which you do most succesfully.
Great, but please leave that for the sad chat rooms on the net, not the forums for the professional boys and girls in here.
Great, but please leave that for the sad chat rooms on the net, not the forums for the professional boys and girls in here.