CDS Vs Hoon
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,574
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
Now then chaps,
Can't you see that we are all enjoying Labour's "peace dividend"? We simply don't need more people in the military.
Oh no, sorry, it was the last government who said that. Ah well, that was them too....
Isn't this sort of thing where the term "spin" originated? Only called that because "bull$hit" isn't politically correct, of course.
Too much with too few resources again, so they try and hoodwink the public, who of course are even more stupid than the government (they must be, look who did the voting)!
P.S. I have to say I saw this coming some years ago and took the ultimate sanction. I left the services. Not that it's much better outside in civvy street though.
My regards to all of those facing a Green Godess Christmas. BTW, looking on the bright side, when we did this 25 years ago it resulted in a big payrise for the military!
Can't you see that we are all enjoying Labour's "peace dividend"? We simply don't need more people in the military.
Oh no, sorry, it was the last government who said that. Ah well, that was them too....
Isn't this sort of thing where the term "spin" originated? Only called that because "bull$hit" isn't politically correct, of course.
Too much with too few resources again, so they try and hoodwink the public, who of course are even more stupid than the government (they must be, look who did the voting)!
P.S. I have to say I saw this coming some years ago and took the ultimate sanction. I left the services. Not that it's much better outside in civvy street though.
My regards to all of those facing a Green Godess Christmas. BTW, looking on the bright side, when we did this 25 years ago it resulted in a big payrise for the military!
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oxford
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good Idea
I like the idea of a coup.
Now let me see, we owe our oath of loyalty to the Queen, not Tony Blair so all we need for an excuse is a Labour Govt attack on HM Queen. Ah, what about the Princess Royal being convicted today because her dogs savaged some children...that sounds convenient.
The Guards are ideally placed to seize Parliament, MoD, Downing St and the BBC. All on those on Op FRESCO can block every line of communication in and out of major cities with thunderclap surprise(well,as quickly as they can at 30mph).
The RAF jaguars can waste both of Prescotts jags...how ironic and the Navy can steam around for a bit with some nice bunting....mind those rocks.
We install a provisional government loyal to the Crown, award ourselves a 40% payrise ( another bout of irony) and arrest every Guardian reader and Mrs Taversall (my old maths teacher and criminal)
Right, I am off to armoury to sign out a shooter. Look out for me stuck in the traffic on the A1 tonight in a purple Corsa.
Go back to your crewrooms and prepare for Government
Now let me see, we owe our oath of loyalty to the Queen, not Tony Blair so all we need for an excuse is a Labour Govt attack on HM Queen. Ah, what about the Princess Royal being convicted today because her dogs savaged some children...that sounds convenient.
The Guards are ideally placed to seize Parliament, MoD, Downing St and the BBC. All on those on Op FRESCO can block every line of communication in and out of major cities with thunderclap surprise(well,as quickly as they can at 30mph).
The RAF jaguars can waste both of Prescotts jags...how ironic and the Navy can steam around for a bit with some nice bunting....mind those rocks.
We install a provisional government loyal to the Crown, award ourselves a 40% payrise ( another bout of irony) and arrest every Guardian reader and Mrs Taversall (my old maths teacher and criminal)
Right, I am off to armoury to sign out a shooter. Look out for me stuck in the traffic on the A1 tonight in a purple Corsa.
Go back to your crewrooms and prepare for Government
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: roughly near Everleigh DZ
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Did I hear talk of a coup?
Where do I sign?
Spose a Daisy-cutter is a bit OTT though for Millbank or wherever they're holed-up now, or is co-lateral damage just a New Labour thing?
Where do I sign?
Spose a Daisy-cutter is a bit OTT though for Millbank or wherever they're holed-up now, or is co-lateral damage just a New Labour thing?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Just as a counter comment, who the h*ll does he think he is stating that soldiers won't cross picket lines? He's a member of the armed forces, if it's a legal order he'd better do what he's told. If they're ordered to cross them, they d*mned well better.
The police have now stated that they won't either. What is going on in this country? I'm waiting with great interest to find out who "Two Jags" is going to get to do it if the army and police won't.
BBC:
In a separate development, the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) has said its members will not cross picket lines to take red fire engines for the armed forces to use.
Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon had suggested police could cross picket lines after army chiefs said soldiers would not.
ACPO vice president Chris Fox, the chief constable of Northamptonshire Police, said: "Under the legislative framework currently in effect, police have no part to play in themselves removing red engines from fire stations."
Downing Street insisted the government was prepared to issue instructions to commandeer the red fire engines, but it would not be drawn on how if both the Army and police refused to cross picket lines.
"Precisely who goes through a picket line, should it be necessary, is less important than the fact that it happens," a spokesman said.
Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott was due to make a statement to the House of Commons later on Thursday.
The police have now stated that they won't either. What is going on in this country? I'm waiting with great interest to find out who "Two Jags" is going to get to do it if the army and police won't.
BBC:
In a separate development, the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) has said its members will not cross picket lines to take red fire engines for the armed forces to use.
Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon had suggested police could cross picket lines after army chiefs said soldiers would not.
ACPO vice president Chris Fox, the chief constable of Northamptonshire Police, said: "Under the legislative framework currently in effect, police have no part to play in themselves removing red engines from fire stations."
Downing Street insisted the government was prepared to issue instructions to commandeer the red fire engines, but it would not be drawn on how if both the Army and police refused to cross picket lines.
"Precisely who goes through a picket line, should it be necessary, is less important than the fact that it happens," a spokesman said.
Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott was due to make a statement to the House of Commons later on Thursday.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Chichester West Sussex UK
Age: 91
Posts: 2,206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ORAC
I have niggle somewhere in the back of my memory that the “one must obey a legal order thing” does have some limits. Orders that are legal in war may not be quite so watertight in a time of peace. Is it always mutiny, especially in peace-time, if you can later show your superior was wrong in what he wanted you to do? Interesting times.
I have niggle somewhere in the back of my memory that the “one must obey a legal order thing” does have some limits. Orders that are legal in war may not be quite so watertight in a time of peace. Is it always mutiny, especially in peace-time, if you can later show your superior was wrong in what he wanted you to do? Interesting times.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CDS gets my vote for the most effective statement for ages on the current problems that affect the armed forces. Sadly, judging my the look on Hoon's face, he will be ignored and Phoney Tony will continue to 'willy wave' at every opportunity and keep committing the armed forces for even greater OOA activities, without having the decency to fund the appropriate equipment.
CDS deserves a vote of thanks from every member of the armed forces for doing something few if any of his predecessors ever did - he stood up in public and was counted.
CDS deserves a vote of thanks from every member of the armed forces for doing something few if any of his predecessors ever did - he stood up in public and was counted.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
John,
I believe the rule is still that one must obey a legal order.Though it is true that some orders may only be true in certain circumstances. I cannot, however, see how an order from the government of the day to cross a picket line could be considered illegal, which is the case in point. if you wish past precedent, they did it in the General Strike of 1926 when the forces crossed the picket lines to run the buses and the underground.
You may quibble as to the ownership of the fire engines (government or local authority), but that is a separate argument and one presumes that, since they are the people in dispute with the firemen, they would authorise their removal and use.
I believe the rule is still that one must obey a legal order.Though it is true that some orders may only be true in certain circumstances. I cannot, however, see how an order from the government of the day to cross a picket line could be considered illegal, which is the case in point. if you wish past precedent, they did it in the General Strike of 1926 when the forces crossed the picket lines to run the buses and the underground.
You may quibble as to the ownership of the fire engines (government or local authority), but that is a separate argument and one presumes that, since they are the people in dispute with the firemen, they would authorise their removal and use.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Geriatrica, UK
Posts: 1,003
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't want to get involved in an Orac vs John Farley debate so I won't!
However, when I use to teach about this stuff there were two categories of "Military Aid" that could be invoked.
The first was "Military Aid to the Civil Power", and had to be invoked by a Senior Judge at the request of the Police. The ever-present example of this is in Northern Ireland where the troops only work within the limits laid down by the judiciary. This emphasises the principle of the "Rule of Law".
The second was "Military Aid to the Civil Community". This category is not subject to Civil Law, but has clearly got to be conducted according to standard military procedures. There are lots of examples of this from flood relief to foot-and-mouth measures. There can be no question of a Service(wo)man not doing something because they don't happen to believe in it. And that must apply to the CDS as much as to a Lance Corporal in a fire engine. The Military personnel work under the instructions of a head of the Civil Government (Mayor, Prime Minister etc).
I imagine we are in a MACC situation and not a MACP. If it's all different now, I'm sure someone will enlighten me!
However, when I use to teach about this stuff there were two categories of "Military Aid" that could be invoked.
The first was "Military Aid to the Civil Power", and had to be invoked by a Senior Judge at the request of the Police. The ever-present example of this is in Northern Ireland where the troops only work within the limits laid down by the judiciary. This emphasises the principle of the "Rule of Law".
The second was "Military Aid to the Civil Community". This category is not subject to Civil Law, but has clearly got to be conducted according to standard military procedures. There are lots of examples of this from flood relief to foot-and-mouth measures. There can be no question of a Service(wo)man not doing something because they don't happen to believe in it. And that must apply to the CDS as much as to a Lance Corporal in a fire engine. The Military personnel work under the instructions of a head of the Civil Government (Mayor, Prime Minister etc).
I imagine we are in a MACC situation and not a MACP. If it's all different now, I'm sure someone will enlighten me!
Do a Hover - it avoids G
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Chichester West Sussex UK
Age: 91
Posts: 2,206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ORAC
Thanks. I was not arguing a point. Just not sure. Your General Strike precedent is interesting too.
I really admire the CDS though. A true senior officer standing up for his men.
Thanks. I was not arguing a point. Just not sure. Your General Strike precedent is interesting too.
I really admire the CDS though. A true senior officer standing up for his men.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: SE England
Posts: 275
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think that anyone has said they would 'refuse' to cross picket lines, merely that they would be extremely reluctant to do so, and for very understandable reasons - it is not the job of the police or military take sides in a civil industrial dispute, and it would be foolish for a government to order them to do so. Unfortunately Labour, despite the 'New' prefix, still display the authoritarian arrogance so typical of socialists. They believe that they now 'own' the country and everything in it - an attitude usually only seen in African dictators.
Article ....here
On a related note, some interesting reading here, by a self-described Royal Marine squaddie;
http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.p...-11-23&id=2517
Why I quit the army. Gordon Bourne has resigned his commission in despair
Article ....here
On a related note, some interesting reading here, by a self-described Royal Marine squaddie;
http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.p...-11-23&id=2517
Why I quit the army. Gordon Bourne has resigned his commission in despair
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The government of the day went a bit further than having them cross picket lines!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"The London docks were besieged by striking dockers and middle-class blacklegs were afraid to go there. The docks were heavily guarded by soldiers in full war-kit and machine guns were mounted everywhere. The Home Secretary met high army and naval officers,
"Make your own plans" he said. "Use whatever force you require - I give you carte blanche - but my orders are that the London Docks must be opened at all costs."
Warships took loads of blacklegs down the Thames at night and one hundred food lorries were loaded. Next morning the lorries passed through the East End in convoy guarded by hundreds of police, two battalions of infantry with fixed bayonets, a number of tanks and ten armoured cars.
---------------------------------------------------------------
On the 7th of May the government issued the following proclamation:
"All ranks of the Armed Forces of the Crown are hereby notified that any action which they may find it necessary to take in an honest endeavour to aid the Civil Power will receive, both now and afterwards, the full support of His Majesty’s Government."
-------------------------------------------------------------------
But the situation was a bit more extreme then, so a tank might be a bit OTT. Don't know when the army last fixed bayonets except in a parade.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"The London docks were besieged by striking dockers and middle-class blacklegs were afraid to go there. The docks were heavily guarded by soldiers in full war-kit and machine guns were mounted everywhere. The Home Secretary met high army and naval officers,
"Make your own plans" he said. "Use whatever force you require - I give you carte blanche - but my orders are that the London Docks must be opened at all costs."
Warships took loads of blacklegs down the Thames at night and one hundred food lorries were loaded. Next morning the lorries passed through the East End in convoy guarded by hundreds of police, two battalions of infantry with fixed bayonets, a number of tanks and ten armoured cars.
---------------------------------------------------------------
On the 7th of May the government issued the following proclamation:
"All ranks of the Armed Forces of the Crown are hereby notified that any action which they may find it necessary to take in an honest endeavour to aid the Civil Power will receive, both now and afterwards, the full support of His Majesty’s Government."
-------------------------------------------------------------------
But the situation was a bit more extreme then, so a tank might be a bit OTT. Don't know when the army last fixed bayonets except in a parade.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1. CDS has demonstrated outstanding military leadership. We must all take comfort from the fact he was prepared to publicly state the way it is for the Armed Forces. What will it cost him?
2. ORAC, I understand your argument and it makes compelling reading. However, what would the RoE be in the event of pickets becoming violent? What about the role of the Euro Court of Human Rights (not around in 1926)? I don't think the legal advisors to the government could make the case for a 'lawful order to cross a picket line' stick. I also believe that is why the Police aren't keen on it either.
3. Has anyone seen the spoof Army recruitment advert allegedly being circulated in Squaddie circles? Today's Current Bun had a feature on it - amusing and pertinent if true.
4. I really hope they don't go on strike for 8 days. It would put unbearable pressure on our lads filling in.
Regards
JJ
2. ORAC, I understand your argument and it makes compelling reading. However, what would the RoE be in the event of pickets becoming violent? What about the role of the Euro Court of Human Rights (not around in 1926)? I don't think the legal advisors to the government could make the case for a 'lawful order to cross a picket line' stick. I also believe that is why the Police aren't keen on it either.
3. Has anyone seen the spoof Army recruitment advert allegedly being circulated in Squaddie circles? Today's Current Bun had a feature on it - amusing and pertinent if true.
4. I really hope they don't go on strike for 8 days. It would put unbearable pressure on our lads filling in.
Regards
JJ
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for your post Mr Civilian, your words will be of great comfort. At least when the bullets start flying, people start losing their lives and servicemen have to endure another several months away from their families, we'll know it's only a flag waving exercise. :o
Not only do we have to endure the back-to-back tours of the Balkans, Falklands, Middle East and Afghanistan to name but a few, we have to do it with ill funded kit, with little extra money and now with narrow minded people like you coming out with bone statements as you do.
You thinks it's easy. Try telling that to the serviceman who has just returned from an Op theatre, had his post Op leave cancelled due to our dear friends the fireman and has the threat of a conflict in the Middle East looming. Oh and do it on very little money with no right of recourse or protest (not that a majority of servicemen would, loyalty and all that).
Even though the bullets may not fly, there would be the constant threat of CBWs being used. Spending untold hours in NBC kit and a respirator is no fun although i suspect you wouldn't appreciate what it's like; I suspect you've spent little if any time wearing the kit.
I'm also glad that 75% of the Iraqi Army will surrender, that only leaves about 100,000 Republican guard to deal with, easy money. 'A few of our ships and doctors' should see them off a treat.
Many of our guys routinely risk their lives. Not wishing to sound dramatic but tearing around at 250 feet in a FJ, conducting Armd Bde live firing Exs etc etc are not without risk. These are things people in the forces do without question, daily; all to train to defend the country. Oh i forgot, we can't do those things at present as we're putting out fires.
The bottom line is, you're comments here are unwelcome, insulting and ill informed. If you think it's easy, why don't you join the military and see for yourself, or are you one of those who is well and truely entrenched in the comfort zone?
If you said what you said to provoke a reaction, you got it but, final comment - F%ck you and crawl back under your rock.
PS CDS what a speech, what was needed right now.
Not only do we have to endure the back-to-back tours of the Balkans, Falklands, Middle East and Afghanistan to name but a few, we have to do it with ill funded kit, with little extra money and now with narrow minded people like you coming out with bone statements as you do.
You thinks it's easy. Try telling that to the serviceman who has just returned from an Op theatre, had his post Op leave cancelled due to our dear friends the fireman and has the threat of a conflict in the Middle East looming. Oh and do it on very little money with no right of recourse or protest (not that a majority of servicemen would, loyalty and all that).
Even though the bullets may not fly, there would be the constant threat of CBWs being used. Spending untold hours in NBC kit and a respirator is no fun although i suspect you wouldn't appreciate what it's like; I suspect you've spent little if any time wearing the kit.
I'm also glad that 75% of the Iraqi Army will surrender, that only leaves about 100,000 Republican guard to deal with, easy money. 'A few of our ships and doctors' should see them off a treat.
Many of our guys routinely risk their lives. Not wishing to sound dramatic but tearing around at 250 feet in a FJ, conducting Armd Bde live firing Exs etc etc are not without risk. These are things people in the forces do without question, daily; all to train to defend the country. Oh i forgot, we can't do those things at present as we're putting out fires.
The bottom line is, you're comments here are unwelcome, insulting and ill informed. If you think it's easy, why don't you join the military and see for yourself, or are you one of those who is well and truely entrenched in the comfort zone?
If you said what you said to provoke a reaction, you got it but, final comment - F%ck you and crawl back under your rock.
PS CDS what a speech, what was needed right now.
Civvie,
I have to hand it to you - you really have mastered the art of dentopedology (the art of putting one's foot in one's mouth).
I won't rehash the apposite comments of other Ppruners more qualified to remark on this matter. All I will remark is that the government (and, for that matter their predecessors) keep remarking that our armed services are the finest in the world. I happen to agree with that, not least since I work with members of all the services 0830-1730 Monday to Friday at the PLC (OK, perhaps 1200 on Fridays...). What puzzles me is why, if the government believes this, they then treat said finest armed forces like Sh-one-t. Treating finest roses with said substance may work, but we aren't dealing with gardening.
By the by, also thanks to this goverment, we don't have any bl00dy ships or Doctors - ever heard of Defence Medical Services trying to manage with something like 10% (I forget the figure) of the required manpower?
Media war is a myth - at its basest level, war is about killing people. It is nasty, brutal and not necessarily short (with apologies to Hobbes). Whether we send any or all of our services into a war zone, every single person deployed faces the risks. That,That is what fighting means. It is hard. It is nasty. It is never easy. It is, though, easy to forget this if you're not the one being shot at/bombed/gassed/bombarded. Sorry, but it's at best insulting and at worst glibly stupid to suggest that any war is going to be easy, even if we do happen to be fighting it with the biggest kid on the block.
Completely changing tack - crossing picket lines is an interesting one, and always leads to a bit of debate when CMR crops up. The problem, I think, is that unlike Foot & Mouth type scenarios, crossing a picket line is an inherently politicised activity, and UK governments of all colours have been a tad reluctant to get the forces involved in overtly political activity since about the time of the Levellers and the Putney Debates... The MACP/MACC questions are interesting ones. As for ROE, surely they'd be based on necessary force? I.e, if fireman sam attacks you with one of his natty baseball caps, bayoneting him might be viewed as a little harsh... Major (now Major-General at least) John Kizeley, a Coy Cdr in Scots Guards bayoneted at least 2 Argentineans during the battle for Tumbledown by the by. 'Pretty sharp for a company commander' as his Btn cdr put it several years later.
[edited to evade censorship of mild expletive]
I have to hand it to you - you really have mastered the art of dentopedology (the art of putting one's foot in one's mouth).
I won't rehash the apposite comments of other Ppruners more qualified to remark on this matter. All I will remark is that the government (and, for that matter their predecessors) keep remarking that our armed services are the finest in the world. I happen to agree with that, not least since I work with members of all the services 0830-1730 Monday to Friday at the PLC (OK, perhaps 1200 on Fridays...). What puzzles me is why, if the government believes this, they then treat said finest armed forces like Sh-one-t. Treating finest roses with said substance may work, but we aren't dealing with gardening.
By the by, also thanks to this goverment, we don't have any bl00dy ships or Doctors - ever heard of Defence Medical Services trying to manage with something like 10% (I forget the figure) of the required manpower?
Media war is a myth - at its basest level, war is about killing people. It is nasty, brutal and not necessarily short (with apologies to Hobbes). Whether we send any or all of our services into a war zone, every single person deployed faces the risks. That,That is what fighting means. It is hard. It is nasty. It is never easy. It is, though, easy to forget this if you're not the one being shot at/bombed/gassed/bombarded. Sorry, but it's at best insulting and at worst glibly stupid to suggest that any war is going to be easy, even if we do happen to be fighting it with the biggest kid on the block.
Completely changing tack - crossing picket lines is an interesting one, and always leads to a bit of debate when CMR crops up. The problem, I think, is that unlike Foot & Mouth type scenarios, crossing a picket line is an inherently politicised activity, and UK governments of all colours have been a tad reluctant to get the forces involved in overtly political activity since about the time of the Levellers and the Putney Debates... The MACP/MACC questions are interesting ones. As for ROE, surely they'd be based on necessary force? I.e, if fireman sam attacks you with one of his natty baseball caps, bayoneting him might be viewed as a little harsh... Major (now Major-General at least) John Kizeley, a Coy Cdr in Scots Guards bayoneted at least 2 Argentineans during the battle for Tumbledown by the by. 'Pretty sharp for a company commander' as his Btn cdr put it several years later.
[edited to evade censorship of mild expletive]
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: City of Culture
Posts: 218
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have a big mouth I know that. Ive always spoke whats on my mind all my life and suffered accordingly for it, I just dont know when to shutup sometimes. There's nothing I can say that will make what I said right. All I can say is that I was telling the truth when I wrote it. Im not attempting to tr0ll people just to get a cheap response. There's things that need to be said about this war and if no one else is willing to say them then I will.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I fully concur with the theme of this thread and surprised that so many with a respected view even bother to give the "civilian" airtime. Ignore him chaps for he knows not what he is jibbering about.
Why is it though that the military has to wait until the senior man of the day is on his home run before he demonstrates the outstanding leadership you should expect daily. Did Sir Michael G not wait until a similar timescale was imminent? I totally applaud his stance, and a brave one it was in such a public forum, but that IS his job after all. if such stands were taken more realistically often our valiant servicemen would undoubtedley go through more CDS's but they might (eventually) get some solutions as opposed tp perpetually being on the wrong side of the queue when cash and equipment is being allocated by the purse stringholders.
Why is it though that the military has to wait until the senior man of the day is on his home run before he demonstrates the outstanding leadership you should expect daily. Did Sir Michael G not wait until a similar timescale was imminent? I totally applaud his stance, and a brave one it was in such a public forum, but that IS his job after all. if such stands were taken more realistically often our valiant servicemen would undoubtedley go through more CDS's but they might (eventually) get some solutions as opposed tp perpetually being on the wrong side of the queue when cash and equipment is being allocated by the purse stringholders.
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Sunny (or Rainy) Somerset, England
Posts: 2,026
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please, please, please Mr A Civilian stop digging and throw your shovel away! Every post you make merely serves to demonstrate - each more clearly than its predecessor - that you are totally ignorant on matters military and political.
A really irritating PPRuNer
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Just popping my head back up above the parapet
Posts: 903
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Civvy,
No problem with you speaking your mind, but you were giving your opinion - not the truth.
If our fine Service Men and Women have to go to war to fight for the freedom of the civilised world, I would much rather they did it with someone like CDS at the helm, as opposed to any of those amoebas in Government.
You should have a little more respect for our service personnel, and their predecessors. They have given you the freedom you enjoy.
And ........ to top it all, I bet you're an Evertonian.
No problem with you speaking your mind, but you were giving your opinion - not the truth.
If our fine Service Men and Women have to go to war to fight for the freedom of the civilised world, I would much rather they did it with someone like CDS at the helm, as opposed to any of those amoebas in Government.
You should have a little more respect for our service personnel, and their predecessors. They have given you the freedom you enjoy.
And ........ to top it all, I bet you're an Evertonian.