Treacherous fishhead berates F-ing crabs
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Do you not think if the bandits get close enough to be killed then the fighters obviously weren't scary enough to make them want to run off home? Maybe zero air-to-air kills could also be seen as a 100% effective air defence platform?
"Any RAF QHI on 705 will confirm that Navy have to pass to a higher standard."
Yes, yes dear. You're much better than any of those nasty crabs. I can just see why you didn't deign to go to OASC after your UAS. Were you VR? Did you get a third year? Thought not. And now you're rotary, not FJ? You're proving the point about standards, dear boy.
You're in danger of sounding like an insecure, immature and rather petulant nit, IMHO
Yes, yes dear. You're much better than any of those nasty crabs. I can just see why you didn't deign to go to OASC after your UAS. Were you VR? Did you get a third year? Thought not. And now you're rotary, not FJ? You're proving the point about standards, dear boy.
You're in danger of sounding like an insecure, immature and rather petulant nit, IMHO
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As someone who left the service of Her Majesty many years ago, it seems to me from reading this thread that, with a few exceptions, the art of banter is nearly dead. Come on chaps, there's always been inter-service rivalry, but banter should be what it's always been - light-hearted and friendly, not the mud-slinging it's degenerating into here.
As a member of neither the RN nor the RAF I had the privilege of serving on exchange to both. I found them very different in their outlook, but each equally professional at their particular tasks, each with their share of good and bad aviators and each with their share of pompous twits. I met pilots with the RAF who had been turned down by the Navy and pilots with the Navy who had been turned down by the RAF, so it all works both ways. I well remember one helicopter pilot with the RAF who had been turned down by the Navy on medical grounds. He later managed to get a conversion on to the Harrier and then flew as a RAF officer in the Falklands with the RN (where I seem to remember he was one of those who achieved a kill - but that may have been of a ship rather than an aircraft - can't remember now). I believe he subsequently transferred to the RN. I wonder if many of you out there remember him or what subsequently became of him?
So come on you military aviators, lets have more of the friendly (albeit cutting) banter and less of the childish mudslinging.
As a member of neither the RN nor the RAF I had the privilege of serving on exchange to both. I found them very different in their outlook, but each equally professional at their particular tasks, each with their share of good and bad aviators and each with their share of pompous twits. I met pilots with the RAF who had been turned down by the Navy and pilots with the Navy who had been turned down by the RAF, so it all works both ways. I well remember one helicopter pilot with the RAF who had been turned down by the Navy on medical grounds. He later managed to get a conversion on to the Harrier and then flew as a RAF officer in the Falklands with the RN (where I seem to remember he was one of those who achieved a kill - but that may have been of a ship rather than an aircraft - can't remember now). I believe he subsequently transferred to the RN. I wonder if many of you out there remember him or what subsequently became of him?
So come on you military aviators, lets have more of the friendly (albeit cutting) banter and less of the childish mudslinging.
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Seems to Draper as a civilian, that as this is the year 1998, and it will soon be the new millenium, perhaps its time for a combined armed forces?.
All this bickering would cease,and a fortune could be saved in purchase of different coloured paints and cloth for uniforms and the like.
One has heard a rumour that the Air Force is to be in control of the new carriers, and the RN is to serve as a kind of hired sub contractor, folding up sails, wrapping ropes up and such, so why not siimply combine the RAF RN and ARMY?
Those of the highest rank would of course require a new title, one suggests.
FIELD AIR GENERALS
The name for such a organisation has taxed Drapes brain though.
ROYAL AIRNAVY LAND FORCE perchance? hhmmm RALF dont have the right kind of ring about it
or perhaps at first the Amalgamated Royal Services Experiment, yes indeed, that has the right kind of sound.
All this bickering would cease,and a fortune could be saved in purchase of different coloured paints and cloth for uniforms and the like.
One has heard a rumour that the Air Force is to be in control of the new carriers, and the RN is to serve as a kind of hired sub contractor, folding up sails, wrapping ropes up and such, so why not siimply combine the RAF RN and ARMY?
Those of the highest rank would of course require a new title, one suggests.
FIELD AIR GENERALS
The name for such a organisation has taxed Drapes brain though.
ROYAL AIRNAVY LAND FORCE perchance? hhmmm RALF dont have the right kind of ring about it
or perhaps at first the Amalgamated Royal Services Experiment, yes indeed, that has the right kind of sound.
Last edited by tony draper; 19th Nov 2002 at 13:02.
Flt Lt A is a member of squadron x. He gets loaned to squadron y. In a unexpected conflict, FLt Lt A splashes one or more enemy aircraft. Which squadron gets the credit for the kill, x or y? Methinks squadron y. I have always understood that personnel who are on loan are considered to be members of the unit/service that they are loaned to.
As such, RAF Pilots on loan to the USAF or RAAF in Korea were acting members of the USAF or RAAF. During Corporate the RAF Harrier guys on loan to the RN Sea Harrier force were acting as naval aviators - in naval units under a naval command. They did an excellent job that was a credit to themselves, their units and their parent service. However, they were acting as part of the Navy.
Likewise RN personnel in RAF units are acting as members of the RAF.
Jacko - You are right, the opportunities for the RAF to achieve lots of air to air kills since WWII have not been there, if there was they would have splashed lots of hostiles. You are wrong to accuse me of being anti RAF - I am not. I have the utmost respect for all members of HM Forces and I have been saddened and worried by the way the RAF has shrunk since the end of the Cold War. What I am against is the view, expressed by you, that the RAF (or anyone else, for that matter) know EVERYTHING. They do not, nobody does. That sound of closed thinking is the enemy of progress. I will ignore your stupid and offensive comment about "somebody wearing a light blue shirt".
For the record, I have never tried to join the RAF. If I had, it would not have been as aircrew. Likewise, I never tried to become RN aircrew. Flying was never a career option for me due to me being as blind as a bat. Yes, I failed the AIB and didn't get to join the Navy as an Officer, but I was allowed to join as a Tiff. I had problems in training, which put paid to that, so now I am just a Reservist. Before Jimlad beats me to death, I would like to say that I have spoken to my new instructors, including ex RN basic training ones, and they genuinely cannot believe how I was treated.
As such, RAF Pilots on loan to the USAF or RAAF in Korea were acting members of the USAF or RAAF. During Corporate the RAF Harrier guys on loan to the RN Sea Harrier force were acting as naval aviators - in naval units under a naval command. They did an excellent job that was a credit to themselves, their units and their parent service. However, they were acting as part of the Navy.
Likewise RN personnel in RAF units are acting as members of the RAF.
Jacko - You are right, the opportunities for the RAF to achieve lots of air to air kills since WWII have not been there, if there was they would have splashed lots of hostiles. You are wrong to accuse me of being anti RAF - I am not. I have the utmost respect for all members of HM Forces and I have been saddened and worried by the way the RAF has shrunk since the end of the Cold War. What I am against is the view, expressed by you, that the RAF (or anyone else, for that matter) know EVERYTHING. They do not, nobody does. That sound of closed thinking is the enemy of progress. I will ignore your stupid and offensive comment about "somebody wearing a light blue shirt".
For the record, I have never tried to join the RAF. If I had, it would not have been as aircrew. Likewise, I never tried to become RN aircrew. Flying was never a career option for me due to me being as blind as a bat. Yes, I failed the AIB and didn't get to join the Navy as an Officer, but I was allowed to join as a Tiff. I had problems in training, which put paid to that, so now I am just a Reservist. Before Jimlad beats me to death, I would like to say that I have spoken to my new instructors, including ex RN basic training ones, and they genuinely cannot believe how I was treated.
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WEBF, You're not a very good advert for your Navy pals, you make it sound as though they're SO desperate for kills that you have to justify why each one was a Navy not an Air Force kill. *yawn*
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WEBF...oh God here we go again!
"I have never tried to join the RAF. If I had, it would not have been as aircrew. Likewise, I never tried to become RN aircrew. Flying was never a career option"
So get off this forum then...
Oh Bo**ocks I can't be bothered...!
(Just for the record Jacko, whilst the FAA and RAF entry scores at OASC are the same, the RN do treat this as an absolute min and tend to be very selective! Nb all those attending in the near future - and well done those recently succeeding!)
So get off this forum then...
Oh Bo**ocks I can't be bothered...!
(Just for the record Jacko, whilst the FAA and RAF entry scores at OASC are the same, the RN do treat this as an absolute min and tend to be very selective! Nb all those attending in the near future - and well done those recently succeeding!)
Chaps, this is all a bit childish. I would, however, like to contribute with 2 observations, both personal views. 1. The RAF's job over the last few decades has been deterrence. That we didn't get into too many scraps is proof that we were doing the job. 2. When I did JSDC I had the privilege to work with officers from all 3 services (or 4 if you count the Marines). I have the highest regard for all of them, including naval aviators, rotary and fixed wing. It does occur to me that much of the griping going on here is based on a deep sense of insecurity.
Magic Mushroom
Is it habit or are you trying to control us all on the ground as well as in the air?
The trouble with 'purple' mentality is that it kills 'banter' for fear of upsetting the cart......
We all know that Fish heads are queers, pongos forget to wash and that the RAF are flying gods, period:-)
Is it habit or are you trying to control us all on the ground as well as in the air?
The trouble with 'purple' mentality is that it kills 'banter' for fear of upsetting the cart......
We all know that Fish heads are queers, pongos forget to wash and that the RAF are flying gods, period:-)
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Tony Draper
The Canadians tried it back in the 60s. It didn't work. The Army and the Navy tried it back in 1914-18. It didn't work; hence the RAF. If you have experienced inter-capbadge sledging in the Army, it makes this little thead seem like Sunday School!
The Canadians tried it back in the 60s. It didn't work. The Army and the Navy tried it back in 1914-18. It didn't work; hence the RAF. If you have experienced inter-capbadge sledging in the Army, it makes this little thead seem like Sunday School!
Soggyboxers,
are you referring to David Morgan, by any chance? He was ex-helicopters, attacked the Narwhal (memory fails me if this was the name of the ship; I fear not), and responsible for the destruction of three enemy aircraft?
This link:http://newmedia2.ppp.co.uk/featuresm...ands/flier.htm from 1997 provides some details about his subsequent career. You'll notice from the piccie that he is wearing RN rank tabs, since he transferred to the RN some time after the war.
are you referring to David Morgan, by any chance? He was ex-helicopters, attacked the Narwhal (memory fails me if this was the name of the ship; I fear not), and responsible for the destruction of three enemy aircraft?
This link:http://newmedia2.ppp.co.uk/featuresm...ands/flier.htm from 1997 provides some details about his subsequent career. You'll notice from the piccie that he is wearing RN rank tabs, since he transferred to the RN some time after the war.
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I think Jacko accidentally touched on a good point a few posts ago.
When an RAF pilot hasn't made the grade and has been chopped about 5 or 6 times in training and therefore has to go rotary.........
he is roughly on a par with a good Navy pilot
When an RAF pilot hasn't made the grade and has been chopped about 5 or 6 times in training and therefore has to go rotary.........
he is roughly on a par with a good Navy pilot
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Tony & Flatus,
Yes we did combine a number of years ago but it didn't fail. We just had mixed results. The politicians loved it and we hated it.
The most annoying thing was that we had the same coloured uniforms. It really made taking the p1ss out of a grunt or fishhead very difficult as we all looked the same.
Now I take the p1ss out of Aussie's and Kiwi's. Not quite so difficult though.
Yes we did combine a number of years ago but it didn't fail. We just had mixed results. The politicians loved it and we hated it.
The most annoying thing was that we had the same coloured uniforms. It really made taking the p1ss out of a grunt or fishhead very difficult as we all looked the same.
Now I take the p1ss out of Aussie's and Kiwi's. Not quite so difficult though.
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oh dear god WEBF has applied and got into the RNR - we really are desperate for people now arent we... 
WEBF - one very basic hint about the RNR - we are not a bunch of anoraks who play at navy for 10 minutes every week then retire to the bar to talk about "when I were a naval captain" - the days of fat 2 1/2s propping up the wardroom are dead. We do a varied and demanding job and 95% of us work damn hard to support the regular navy and I would go so far as to say have worked hard to earn if nor respect, then at least a grudging acknowledgement of our capabilities from our regular colleagues. Please please please don't set this hard won trust back by 30 years by going on about the RN and how they treated you like dirt, cos to be honest neither myself nor anyone else gives a damn and you'll only annoy people and give an organisation to which I'm proud to belong a bad name - reputations travel fast and if you arent careful yours will travel faster than most.
WEBF - one very basic hint about the RNR - we are not a bunch of anoraks who play at navy for 10 minutes every week then retire to the bar to talk about "when I were a naval captain" - the days of fat 2 1/2s propping up the wardroom are dead. We do a varied and demanding job and 95% of us work damn hard to support the regular navy and I would go so far as to say have worked hard to earn if nor respect, then at least a grudging acknowledgement of our capabilities from our regular colleagues. Please please please don't set this hard won trust back by 30 years by going on about the RN and how they treated you like dirt, cos to be honest neither myself nor anyone else gives a damn and you'll only annoy people and give an organisation to which I'm proud to belong a bad name - reputations travel fast and if you arent careful yours will travel faster than most.
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Well, I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised about the overall reaction to my post.
Jacko - Thank you for your response and for not laying in to me. However, I asked you to provide FACT to support your assertion that RN standards are lower than the RAF and I am afraid anecdotal evidence from five acquaintances will not do. Either back your comment up with real evidence or retract it.
Further, later on you also threw out disparaging remarks about RW crew in relation to their FW bretheren. I am sorry, but this again will just not do. Frankly I believe you are more experienced and more well read than those you chose to attack and your aggressive posture has diminshed your credibility in my eyes.
Note to all - We all do different jobs and we are all, rightly, incredibly proud of our service identity and perceived importance to the 'master plan'. If you wish to banter people, I humbly request you select your language carefully and refrain from outright insult and comment which in some cases has bordered on harrassment.
Fly safely and remember to keep the shiny side the right way up.
JJ
Jacko - Thank you for your response and for not laying in to me. However, I asked you to provide FACT to support your assertion that RN standards are lower than the RAF and I am afraid anecdotal evidence from five acquaintances will not do. Either back your comment up with real evidence or retract it.
Further, later on you also threw out disparaging remarks about RW crew in relation to their FW bretheren. I am sorry, but this again will just not do. Frankly I believe you are more experienced and more well read than those you chose to attack and your aggressive posture has diminshed your credibility in my eyes.
Note to all - We all do different jobs and we are all, rightly, incredibly proud of our service identity and perceived importance to the 'master plan'. If you wish to banter people, I humbly request you select your language carefully and refrain from outright insult and comment which in some cases has bordered on harrassment.
Fly safely and remember to keep the shiny side the right way up.
JJ
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Don't let facts get in the way.
Having read this thread from start to finish it makes a tale more teadious than a Jane Austin novel. However scarce amongst all the waffle are hard facts - so here are a couple to chew on:
In 82 the RN scored the only "blue on blue" air kill when a Type 42 (Cardiff?) shotdown an AAC Gazelle near Mt P killing all on board.
In his account of his air engagements in the battle, Cdr Ward neatly avoids explaining why he commited a basic and almost fatal air combat error.
If you can't spot it - or more likely - can't be bothered to look, ask any U/T pilot that is more than 2 weeks into training and they will be able to point it out. Never turn through more than 90 without a belly check I seem to remember an old instructor telling me............
In 82 the RN scored the only "blue on blue" air kill when a Type 42 (Cardiff?) shotdown an AAC Gazelle near Mt P killing all on board.
In his account of his air engagements in the battle, Cdr Ward neatly avoids explaining why he commited a basic and almost fatal air combat error.
If you can't spot it - or more likely - can't be bothered to look, ask any U/T pilot that is more than 2 weeks into training and they will be able to point it out. Never turn through more than 90 without a belly check I seem to remember an old instructor telling me............
Roymac,
You wrote:
>Never turn through more than 90 without a belly check I seem to remember an old instructor telling me............
On which combat are you referring to: the 21.5.82 combat when CDR Ward and wing LT Thomas scored 3 Daggers?
I believe Capt Donadille came in unseen after Ward had merged with two other Daggers and shot a few 30mm rounds at him, then overshot badly - Ward caught sight of him and shot him.
You wrote:
>Never turn through more than 90 without a belly check I seem to remember an old instructor telling me............
On which combat are you referring to: the 21.5.82 combat when CDR Ward and wing LT Thomas scored 3 Daggers?
I believe Capt Donadille came in unseen after Ward had merged with two other Daggers and shot a few 30mm rounds at him, then overshot badly - Ward caught sight of him and shot him.