Treacherous fishhead berates F-ing crabs

[timzsta]

Someone needs to press the "tangent control device" .....

[Jackonicko]

I suspect that Colonel K is another RAF reject who was nevertheless good enough for the Navy, where standards do seem to be lower. Was it Bertie Penfold, or or one of the other RAF Sea Harrier mates (who between them accounted for how many of the Falklands kills?) who said that 'The Navy Shar pilots are a great bunch - half of them originally wanted to join the RAF!'

If the Second Sea Lord was correct about half the Navy having had homosexual experiences, and if half of the Navy's pilots are former RAF rejects, is it really all that surprising that Macho anti-Crab posturing should emanate from Ward and his chum?

And apart from the Falklands, and a solitary confirmed kill by Peter Carmichael in Korea, how impressive has the RN's air-to-air record been?

For comparison, the RAF scored kills in Israel/Egypt/Palestine in 1947-48, in Korea, and in Indonesia.

In Korea, several RAF pilots on exchange with USAF Sabre units scored more than one kill, and many gained one kill. I can only provide a partial list today, I'm afraid.

The first MiG-15 in Korea to fall to an RAF pilot was shot down by then Flight Lieutenant John Nicholls, who completed 100 missions in six months with the 335th Fighter Interception Squadron, shooting down a MiG on his last but one mission in Korea in December 1952, having previously damaged three others.

Flight Lieutenant Graham S Hulse, scored three MiG 15 kills.

Squadron leader Max Higson from No.43 Squadron, destroyed at least one MiG-15, as did Flight Lieutenant Lovell from No.43 Squadron.
Flight Lieutenant Babst from No.213 Squadron scored at least one kill, as did Flight Lieutenant RTF Dickinson, and Flight Lieutenant John Granville-White.
Flight Lieutenant Daniel was officially credited with damaging two MiGs during his six-month tour during 1952, because an RAF officer scoring confirmed kills was held to be 'politically embarrassing.

Only one RAF pilot (Wing Commander Johnnie Baldwin) was shot down in Korea, being posted missing in 1952.

[Farfrompuken]

Tim:

sorry mate, last post was related to previous. Couldn't contain my dissapointment ref: the inevitable.

Anyway, I think you'll find that some RAF crews are doing an seriously awesome job at the moment in a variety of roles and theatres. Too much bleating over the past is pointless.

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Red Banter Caption

Jacko, thanks for an on topic reply and just as I thought. I also know of many occassions when the baddies have scarpered back over their border to avoid mixing it with the RAF, eg Radfan.

And Kurtzy chill out, shippers, its only banter after all. Banter is normally a) FUNNY, b) good spirited, c) in house and d) tenously related to facts. Unfortunately your fishy-fingered bum-buddies failed on 4 counts. Please spare us from the old 6 month IOT, equipment, role, seniority blah cos its been flogged to death before. Maybe we should start a new thread for all those wanting a tri-service mongolian bitch fight (could be fun), before this thread goes totally divergent. Everybody r-e-l-a-x.

and Farfrom, bang on mate, cheers.

[jungly]

Training Risky....?

Where are you from mate? "Wrong Grid Ref" - fly Pumas then????
My case rests.

Poor old F3 lads: still its hard to shoot something down when youve got the turning circle of the space shuttle and the radar of a swordfish.

On the plus side.... why have the crabs not "taken" the WAH64 from the AAC who are making a right horses-ar$e of the whole schbang? (Pandora's box slowly opens................................ )

[Tourist]

Jacko. Not all of us of the master race failed to get into the Crabs! Some of us managed to get thrown out as well!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Not posted till now as it would have been tooo easy but nice to see Jacko's post which, hopefully, will put a sock, with an "S" in the gob of all these cheeky semen.........or maybe with a "C" would be their preferance

Brought some shining examples of our proud navel assets back from the med this weekend. The sight of a few of the "senior service" swaying drunkenly, as if in a stiffy force 9, at the roadside in wilts shortly after landing made me cringe. This, what's the collective noun for semen?.....This stain made Captain Pugwash and his merry men look proffesional so lord help us in the ports round the world Should have had the scuffers meet the a/c and "jail" the lot of them but this close to xmas we just did'nt have the heart.

Jungly stick to your slow old chopper mate, the F3 may have a big turning circle but it's drivers, and it's drivers mates will run rings round you any day

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[EESDL]

I'm sure they are waiting for Sharkey with open arms over on 20(R) Sqn!!
Enjoy.

[Tourist]

ABIW, actually turned up did you. Well, there's a first time for everything. bet you were late. Incidentally, I'd be pissed if I knew crabs would be flying me too, except that i wouldnt put it past you byggers to hand us to the police.

[Training Risky]

Jungly Mate...

I don't want to turn this into a slanging match, but reference my location; haven't you ever heard of self-deprecating humour?

I don't take myself too seriously, unlike the 'senior service'...

[junglejim]

Some of you people are too precious. I wonder how many of you read through your posts before hitting 'submit reply'?

Jackonicko - You offered us some very good statistics backed up with names to make your case. However, it was all ruined by your opening paragraph and specifically the comment: "....Navy, where the standards do seem to be lower". I would like to know what facts you base this assertion on. Secondly, you choose to heap scorn on Hoagy Carmichael's kill and have crucially neglected to point out the true scale of his achievement. Let me put the record straight for you. Hoagy shot down a MiG 15 on 9 August 1952 while flying a Sea Fury. I believe this rather negates your implied cynicism.

All of us must be careful when slinging the banter around - don't be tempted to sully the good names of all of our forebears (FAA, RAF and AAC), a lot of whom did not return, in order to make your cheap point. As for 'inter Service rivalry', I'm all for it, but as has been pointed out on this forum many times before, remember you are not the only ones who read it. Think about the impression you send to those your recruitment offices would like to attract.

Rant over. Fly safely one and all.

JJ

[mutleyfour]

Who'd have thought it!

It was only 84 - 88 years ago that we were all flying together. (well the FAA and the Army, which, yes, I know lead to the RAF!)

Shut up and fly!

[Magic Mushroom]

'Gentleman',

The many sad posts that I've read on this particular thread really are the sort of pathetic, whingeing comments that tempt me to remove 'PPRUNE' from my 'favourites' list.

As an AWACS chappie I've had the honour of working (and continue to work) with all 3 UK services very closely in peace and several (undeclared) wars. My platform is arguably more purple than most in its use, and I have always felt priveliged to work with people who are undoubtedly the finest military personnel in the world. Banter is banter, and I enjoy it as much as the next person. However, the taxpayer reading this thread must surely doubt the professionalism of those who serve today.

All 3 services have their peculiarities, their strengths and weaknesses. Today we all do our best with often inadequate kit and funding. Because of this, we all rely on each other in peace and conflict (either directly or indirectly). So let's grow up and stop mudslinging.

I've not read the GQ article that started all this. But frankly I find it insulting to the memory of many servicemen who served and in some cases died when we use their efforts as cheap point scoring against other services.

The sum of all our 3 services is considerably greater than their individual worth.

Regards
M2

[fobotcso]

Bravo to the last three posters! (and to Jacko whose post follows this) [edited to avoid another post and to conserve bandwidth]

But don't despair. Remember Danny's big red banner at the bottom of the page and ask yourself whether we should take everything that is written here at face value.

The UK taxpayer (and the World in general that can read this stuff) can rest assured that much of the incoherent ranting seen here is from those who who have been no closer to combat aviation than playing Top Gun on their PCs. These opinions are not from the genuine military aviation community.

If you're good, you don't need to swank about it - especially from behind an anonymous PPRuNe moniker.

[Jackonicko]

This thread started in response to an article in which someone who failed to make the grade as an RAF pilot saying: "'I would trust the f***ing crabs as far as I could throw them. Since 1945 they've only shot down 2 ac and they were both British' etc etc."

So don't give me a bashing for cheap comments.

You ask me to justify what was a throwaway remark.

"....Navy, where the standards do seem to be lower".

I was referring to pilot selection, mainly to wind up Colonel K. I was assuming that he was like the five people I know who completed UAS, but then failed OASC for the RAF and who were subsequently accepted with open arms by the RN as pilots.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that this is by no means unusual.

Moreover, I'd like you to re-read my post. I said nothing to diss Peter Carmichael's achievement. Just pointed out that it was unique. (It probably wasn't actually, since he probably got another, and thought that Smoo Ellis got one too).

I've met and interviewed Carmichael (the Hoagy nickname wasn't used by him or his friends, he said), and found him to be a charming bloke and utterly without the anti-RAF prejudice which seems to infect so many RN aircrew on PPRuNe now. Indeed it was when interviewing him (I thought he was the UK's only MiG-killer in Korea) that he told me about Nicholls and Hulse and the other RAF pilots who'd done the deed in USAF Sabres. He (or perhaps one of his wingmen) also believed that an RAF Sergeant Spitfire pilot had downed a LaGG or a Yak.

But getting back to the point, the pre Falklands kill tally was RN: One - RAF: More than a dozen

And the killilot ratio in the Falklands (of the pilots deployed) was also impressive for the RAF. So let's stop this infantile pi$$ing contest, eh, and just recognise that the RAF are the air power experts!!!?

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Good Point Magic Mushroom. Some of this banter is getting out of hand.

Just a few of my thoughts - mainly in response to some very illogical statements.

Many of the air-air kills in the Falklands were achieved by RAF Pilots on loan to the Navy's Sea Harrier force. So what? Still NAVAL aircraft from either 800 or 801 NAVAL Air Squadron. So the kill belongs to the squadron, and the Navy - or do you not think it worth remembering that these were RN aircraft in RN units under RN command? Yes the credit goes to the Pilot, but not the RAF as it was not an RAF unit.

Yes IF suitable airfields had been available then the RAF Phantoms and Lightnings would have done a good job in '82. But the point is there wasn't, and they didn't. Even if they had Organic Air Defence would still have been important.

Since the RAF deployed no fighters to Korea, RAF Pilots achieving kills there did so whilst flying USAF or RAAF aircraft. Therefore the credit goes to the relevent service (and of course the Pilot).

You say the RAF achieved kills in Israel/Palestine/Egypt and Indonesia. Can you provide anything to back this up?

You claim half of the Navy's Pilots (including the Gentleman mentioned at the start of this thread) are ex RAF ones. Wow - that is incredible. Oh but methinks there is an explanation: Until December last year (when 727 NAS (at Plymouth) starting offering flying training to aspiring WAFUs) the only way to get flying training (paid for) is through a University Air Squadron. Therefore a wannabe aviator going to University will probably pick one with (or near to) a UAS, which he will then apply to join. Joining the UAS means he/she is now a member (sort of) of the RAF, regardless of which service he/she had in mind.

Lastly, the media and them that work in it do have a tendancy to bend the truth. The Gentleman is question may have said "I would trust the crabs to defend the fleet more than a stone's throw away from their bases", which would get easily distorted by a Journalist to "I wouldn't f****** trust the crabs......." Such is the state of modern Journalism. Even the most innocent of comments can get spiced up and changed completly by editors.

[Jackonicko]

WEBF,

As someone who failed to get into the Navy, let alone the RAF, your anti-RAF prejudice is merely tedious, and not even banter. Were you sexually assaulted by someone wearing a light blue shirt as a child? (Your contribution probably does come close to being "incoherent ranting from those who who have been no closer to combat aviation than playing Top Gun on their PCs" as one poster put it, however).

If an RAF officer shot down an enemy aircraft, then it should be sufficient to indicate that your mate 'Mental' (he must be your mate if you refer to him with such familiarity) was way out of line with his quoted comment: "Since 1945 they (the RAF) have only shot down 2 ac and they were both British." Nit-picking arguments as to whether or not an individual pilot was operating under RAF command at the time is all well and good, but to argue this dignifies Ward's facile, inaccurate and offensive jibe.

His intimation was that the RAF (and its pilots) were somehow inferior to Royal Navy pilots and ignored factors like opportunity. He didn't say: "Since 1945 they (the RAF) have only had the opportunity to shoot down friendly aircraft." He wasn't condemning the RAF as an organisation while generously acknowledging the competence of its members. Therefore bringing up Korea and the contribution made by RAF pilots during Corporate counters the broad thrust of what he inferred, whether or not what he said was strictly accurate or not.

His jibe was as unfair as it would be for someone to suggest that sawing the wing off an unarmed C-130 was somehow a less valid kill.....

I didn't claim that half of the Navy's pilots were RAF, or ex RAF, or RAF rejects, incidentally. I repeated what a Falklands SHar pilot had said. And lest anyone chooses to misunderstand me, I'll add that I think that the RN are a superb bunch of highly professional aviators, and that the SHar blokes in the Falklands were an elite, whose outstanding success was hardly surprising. It's just that I don't think they're 'better' than the crabs who Ward junior seems to despise with such hearty contempt. I think that his attitude and remarks demean his service.

In 1948 at least two Egyptian Spitfires were downed by the RAF. I can't remember if these were downed by Tempests or Spits. The IDF/AF history office believe that they lost at least one aircraft (an S199?) to an RAF fighter, too.

In Indonesia the victims were a C-130 and a MiG-17 (the latter was a manoeuvre kill) which fell to a Javelin and a Hunter, if memory serves.

In view of the political sensitivity of both of these campaigns (we were not at war) you will need to dig hard to discover what went on. But the truth is out there.

Cheap shots about journalists are de rigeur here, naturally. But I have to say that the quoted comments by Ward sound awfully convincing to me, reflecting the puerile prejudice which these inter-service arguments so often generate among a tiny minority of soft-headed JOs. I doubt that GQ employed anyone good enough to concoct something quite so believable.

[A Grey Man]

Oh Deary Me - How Sad

Hmmh.....I don't care who escorts me, who protects my butt and who picks me up when I get shot down......as long as we are on the same side, same hymn sheet with the same ethos and spirit.

Come on lads and lasses, TLT/NITEX and other Ops/Ex prove that all of the above is pointless......come the revolution (which might not be that far away)....we would all dig out blind for each other.

Oh, and by the way if I was a certain organisation that liked finding stuff out about aircrew, I have shed loads here for the next time that he goes into the 'bag'! It might be in GQ, but lets not further expand names round the world wide web one day you might find him in a stress position next to you in a foreign land.....!

[Colonel W E Kurtz]

I never applied to OASC (Officer Aircrew Selection Cranwell).

The computer aptitude tests are more difficult for the FAA than the RAF.

Speak to anyone at Shawbury at the moment and they will tell you that Navy Rotary Pilots have to pass to a far higher standard than their RAF counterparts.

[Training Risky]

W E Kurtz

"Speak to anyone at Shawbury at the moment and they will tell you that Navy Rotary Pilots have to pass to a far higher standard than their RAF counterparts."

I think that is a matter of opinion. Seeing how a large majority of Squirrel QHIs are FAA/AAC I don't see how speaking to them will provide an unbiased opinion.

Yes, fishheads may have to fly extra "Captaincy" sorties due to the crew composition of the types they go on to after 705 Sqn.
But they don't go through the Griffin course and the steep learning curve it entails....

Maybe if they did a taster of 60(R) Sqn before the Sea Queen/Lynx/Merlin, this false perception of higher standards in the FAA might cease?

Awaiting replies, strapped into my seat...