BAE Systems Hawk Replacement?
Joined: Mar 2003
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From: Warton on Sea
Thanks for the vote of confidence in my analytical skills LateArmLive
Now that 2 people have confirmed that I have fallen and can't reach my beer it must therefore be true.
Just for the record, what I attended was not a "sales pitch", but it was a well presented analysis of the pros and cons, facts and fiction of the situation regarding the need to find a sensible replacement for the Hawk T2 for the UK (and other training platforms for other nations globally).
Though I am getting on a bit and rapidly approaching the KOS demographic, I'd like to think that my analytical skills (in which the UK taxpayer has significantly invested in) are up for the task. 47 years in aviation, with TI, IRE, QWI, QFI, (USAF) IP, TP, Member RAeS and Fellow of SETP (Society of Experiment Test Pilots) to my credit. True to add that having 2 more take-offs than landings I cannot therefore be classed as a good pilot!
Tarnished
Now that 2 people have confirmed that I have fallen and can't reach my beer it must therefore be true.
Just for the record, what I attended was not a "sales pitch", but it was a well presented analysis of the pros and cons, facts and fiction of the situation regarding the need to find a sensible replacement for the Hawk T2 for the UK (and other training platforms for other nations globally).
Though I am getting on a bit and rapidly approaching the KOS demographic, I'd like to think that my analytical skills (in which the UK taxpayer has significantly invested in) are up for the task. 47 years in aviation, with TI, IRE, QWI, QFI, (USAF) IP, TP, Member RAeS and Fellow of SETP (Society of Experiment Test Pilots) to my credit. True to add that having 2 more take-offs than landings I cannot therefore be classed as a good pilot!
Tarnished
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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From: Peripatetic
Tarnished, post 94: “Aeralis represents the “last chance saloon” to retain an aerospace capability in the UK.”
Tarnished, post 99: “I take your opinion re BAES/GCAP/Tempest. I was thinking more of having a production capability that would give the option of an alternative and not leave the UK with a single manufacturer with the monopoly and the leverage to set higher prices.”
Tarnished, post 99: “I take your opinion re BAES/GCAP/Tempest. I was thinking more of having a production capability that would give the option of an alternative and not leave the UK with a single manufacturer with the monopoly and the leverage to set higher prices.”
Your second point also seems to be fallacious, as there is no evidence BaE and Aeralis would ever be in competition for the same sector of the market - certainly not for Hawk replacement in the required timescale, as they will be instead be ramping up manpower to support Tempest production instead.
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 460
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From: Warton on Sea
ORAC I was thinking more along this line:
Saab, Boeing, and BAE Systems Pitch T-7 Red Hawk for UK Fast Jet Trainer - The Aviationist
Letter of Intent to Collaborate.
Saab, Boeing, and BAE Systems Pitch T-7 Red Hawk for UK Fast Jet Trainer - The Aviationist
Letter of Intent to Collaborate.
Joined: Oct 2009
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From: Land of Oz
It is a sad indictment of the British aerospace industry - BAe - that they cannot design and build the new advanced jet trainer.
Done it before - with two good aircraft, the Jaguar and the brilliant Hawk. We (RAAF) followed the RAF with a newer T.1, greatly upgraded digital avionics as the LIFT and called the Mk.127, ordered in 1996. Similar I would guess to Viking's Canadian Mk.115. The RAF's follow-on Hawk T.2 appears not to have been a great success.
Our Hawk 127 will be the next fast jet for replacement, and with no RAF indigenous project, I can see going for the T-7.
Done it before - with two good aircraft, the Jaguar and the brilliant Hawk. We (RAAF) followed the RAF with a newer T.1, greatly upgraded digital avionics as the LIFT and called the Mk.127, ordered in 1996. Similar I would guess to Viking's Canadian Mk.115. The RAF's follow-on Hawk T.2 appears not to have been a great success.
Our Hawk 127 will be the next fast jet for replacement, and with no RAF indigenous project, I can see going for the T-7.
Last edited by BBadanov; 15th January 2026 at 06:13.
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 536
Likes: 71
From: Overseas
Thanks for the vote of confidence in my analytical skills LateArmLive
Now that 2 people have confirmed that I have fallen and can't reach my beer it must therefore be true.
Just for the record, what I attended was not a "sales pitch", but it was a well presented analysis of the pros and cons, facts and fiction of the situation regarding the need to find a sensible replacement for the Hawk T2 for the UK (and other training platforms for other nations globally).
Though I am getting on a bit and rapidly approaching the KOS demographic, I'd like to think that my analytical skills (in which the UK taxpayer has significantly invested in) are up for the task. 47 years in aviation, with TI, IRE, QWI, QFI, (USAF) IP, TP, Member RAeS and Fellow of SETP (Society of Experiment Test Pilots) to my credit. True to add that having 2 more take-offs than landings I cannot therefore be classed as a good pilot!
Tarnished
Now that 2 people have confirmed that I have fallen and can't reach my beer it must therefore be true.
Just for the record, what I attended was not a "sales pitch", but it was a well presented analysis of the pros and cons, facts and fiction of the situation regarding the need to find a sensible replacement for the Hawk T2 for the UK (and other training platforms for other nations globally).
Though I am getting on a bit and rapidly approaching the KOS demographic, I'd like to think that my analytical skills (in which the UK taxpayer has significantly invested in) are up for the task. 47 years in aviation, with TI, IRE, QWI, QFI, (USAF) IP, TP, Member RAeS and Fellow of SETP (Society of Experiment Test Pilots) to my credit. True to add that having 2 more take-offs than landings I cannot therefore be classed as a good pilot!
Tarnished
Maybe my somewhat shorter experience than yours (but still very much current) is flawed, but I would much rather the UK buy an established, proven capability rather than some modular nonsense that's been dreamt up and doesn't actually exist. "Buying British" is not the answer to all the problems.
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From: Ferrara
"It is a sad indictment of the British aerospace industry - BAe - that they cannot design and build the new advanced jet trainer."
I'm sure they could - but who will buy it? The market already has a number of new-ish trainers and they're not exactly ovverun with orders. You'd spend a few Billion of tax payers money and buy a couple of squadrons for the RAF - doesn't make economic sense. Perhaps if they'd developed a Hawk replacement 15 years ago things might be different .
I'm sure they could - but who will buy it? The market already has a number of new-ish trainers and they're not exactly ovverun with orders. You'd spend a few Billion of tax payers money and buy a couple of squadrons for the RAF - doesn't make economic sense. Perhaps if they'd developed a Hawk replacement 15 years ago things might be different .
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: Near the coast
Asturias
When the USAF launched the T-X process, a couple of Hawk T2s were flown to the States (2011). The T-X requirements were pretty much written to exclude the Hawk (and they were always going to buy American). That was the time that BAE could and should have taken it more seriously. Maybe a modular concept then might have gained traction based on affordability.
The problem is that a requirement like the USAF T-X programme needs an actual aircraft.
When talking about Aeralis, what’s the performance like? What’s the mission architecture? What sensor simulation will it have? How will it support 5th gen and onwards training?
So many questions and still zero answers. They wouldn’t even be able to tell you which MFDs they’d put in it and whether it would have a HUD in the back seat.
I’m a big fan of the Hawk and I’m still intimately involved with it. I also have a soft spot for BAE (they paid my wages for a few years after all!) but their best shot is obviously now the T7. Let’s see how that progresses.
Once again, please prove me wrong Aeralis and I’ll gladly eat my words.
BV
The problem is that a requirement like the USAF T-X programme needs an actual aircraft.
When talking about Aeralis, what’s the performance like? What’s the mission architecture? What sensor simulation will it have? How will it support 5th gen and onwards training?
So many questions and still zero answers. They wouldn’t even be able to tell you which MFDs they’d put in it and whether it would have a HUD in the back seat.
I’m a big fan of the Hawk and I’m still intimately involved with it. I also have a soft spot for BAE (they paid my wages for a few years after all!) but their best shot is obviously now the T7. Let’s see how that progresses.
Once again, please prove me wrong Aeralis and I’ll gladly eat my words.
BV
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 95
Likes: 32
From: East Riding
It is a sad indictment of the British aerospace industry - BAe - that they cannot design and build the new advanced jet trainer.
Done it before - with two good aircraft, the Jaguar and the brilliant Hawk. We (RAAF) followed the RAF with a newer T.1, greatly upgraded digital avionics as the LIFT and called the Mk.127, ordered in 1996. Similar I would guess to Viking's Canadian Mk.115. The RAF's follow-on Hawk T.2 appears not to have been a great success.
Our Hawk 127 will be the next fast jet for replacement, and with no RAF indigenous project, I can see going for the T-7.
Done it before - with two good aircraft, the Jaguar and the brilliant Hawk. We (RAAF) followed the RAF with a newer T.1, greatly upgraded digital avionics as the LIFT and called the Mk.127, ordered in 1996. Similar I would guess to Viking's Canadian Mk.115. The RAF's follow-on Hawk T.2 appears not to have been a great success.
Our Hawk 127 will be the next fast jet for replacement, and with no RAF indigenous project, I can see going for the T-7.
The Mk.115 (and Indian Mk.132 with indigenous avionics) were based closely on the "2nd generation" Hawk, the Mk.102/3/8/9 from the mid- 80's and raster-type displays.
The mid-90's Mk.127 LIF had a substantial avionics fit to initially replicate the F-18 (Boeing did the same to make the T-45C from the original T-45A). It also included a significantly upgraged centre and rear fuselage to address all the tailplane buffet issues found well after the T.Mk.1 entered service. This airframe and fit became the baseline for the following production Mk.128 (T.Mk.2) right up to the last Mk.167 (Qatar). The T.Mk.2 included a later avionics upgrade which I think the RAAF have taken up (moving map, simulated radar etc.).
As far as I can tell, it is a useful training platform (hope BV can confirm), it's availabilty that is the problem
Many people in BAE Systems (especially at the working level) were convinced there was a new project or at least another significant upgrade required but forthcoming definite orders to justify the investment had always been a problem on Hawk. Development of the company demonstrator ZJ951 with slatted wing (by basically the same team that had rushed through the T45 slatted wing and other mods) was flown to demonstrate potential for the USAF trainer and an F-35 style display fitted, but the partnership with Northrop didn't proceed.
From my lowly viewpoint, there was always a reluctance in the RAF to take on the Hawk T.Mk.2, partly because people were unaware of the LIF capability, hostility to BAES maybe?, also (the cycnic in me thinks) RAF and DE&S people would rather than join the gravy train to Italy than sunny East Yorkshire !
Last edited by teeonefixer; 15th January 2026 at 10:08.
Joined: Sep 2004
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From: Royal Berkshire
"It is a sad indictment of the British aerospace industry - BAe - that they cannot design and build the new advanced jet trainer."
I'm sure they could - but who will buy it? The market already has a number of new-ish trainers and they're not exactly ovverun with orders. You'd spend a few Billion of tax payers money and buy a couple of squadrons for the RAF - doesn't make economic sense. Perhaps if they'd developed a Hawk replacement 15 years ago things might be different .
I'm sure they could - but who will buy it? The market already has a number of new-ish trainers and they're not exactly ovverun with orders. You'd spend a few Billion of tax payers money and buy a couple of squadrons for the RAF - doesn't make economic sense. Perhaps if they'd developed a Hawk replacement 15 years ago things might be different .
And they've closed down Dunsfold and Brough as production facilities as well. I'm sure the MOD's laughable order numbers for T.2 showed BAe it simply wasn't worth it to design and build a replacement for it, given MOD would likely only order a handful (if they were lucky)
If Aeralis were so cock-sure about their idea, and numbers of sales (when M346 and T-50 are already flying and in service and T-7 is test flying) then having a test flying prototype at least might at least go some way to proving its a viable contender.
But no, they seem to want to keep saying, trust us, give us the money and we can design a new plane, build a new factory, train new workforce, pretty much do everything else from scratch and all chances and risks associated with that, and given the reducing timelines for RAF needs........you'd have to be certifiable to give them a contract on that criteria (of course given most politicians are close to certifiable, that's probably not a good analogy
)Joined: Nov 2005
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From: Wildest Surrey
Joined: Sep 2004
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From: Royal Berkshire
Aah yes, forgot about that one. There had been suggestions sometime ago about a French-Spain jet trainer design, but I suspect Spain choosing the Hurjet now has killed that idea, which leaves PAF with an interesting decision in the near future for a replacement for their Alpha-Jets when they have to retire them, as PAF have said they won't use the PC-21 now in service with the French, and they won't fly a non-French aircraft...... 
Joined: May 2003
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From: The 24th & a Half Century
Quite.
And they've closed down Dunsfold and Brough as production facilities as well. I'm sure the MOD's laughable order numbers for T.2 showed BAe it simply wasn't worth it to design and build a replacement for it, given MOD would likely only order a handful (if they were lucky)
If Aeralis were so cock-sure about their idea, and numbers of sales (when M346 and T-50 are already flying and in service and T-7 is test flying) then having a test flying prototype at least might at least go some way to proving its a viable contender.
But no, they seem to want to keep saying, trust us, give us the money and we can design a new plane, build a new factory, train new workforce, pretty much do everything else from scratch and all chances and risks associated with that, and given the reducing timelines for RAF needs........you'd have to be certifiable to give them a contract on that criteria (of course given most politicians are close to certifiable, that's probably not a good analogy)
And they've closed down Dunsfold and Brough as production facilities as well. I'm sure the MOD's laughable order numbers for T.2 showed BAe it simply wasn't worth it to design and build a replacement for it, given MOD would likely only order a handful (if they were lucky)
If Aeralis were so cock-sure about their idea, and numbers of sales (when M346 and T-50 are already flying and in service and T-7 is test flying) then having a test flying prototype at least might at least go some way to proving its a viable contender.
But no, they seem to want to keep saying, trust us, give us the money and we can design a new plane, build a new factory, train new workforce, pretty much do everything else from scratch and all chances and risks associated with that, and given the reducing timelines for RAF needs........you'd have to be certifiable to give them a contract on that criteria (of course given most politicians are close to certifiable, that's probably not a good analogy
)I also find it perplexing that the pitch keeps changing around no cost to the U.K. taxpayer, so it’s free then right? The accessible market it ŁXbn or is it ŁYbn? The WLC cost estimate is a work of fiction too and they have no idea as to cost base (then again neither does Boeing on T-7).
Hey, but trust us right? It really does seem like one large Ponzi or laundering scheme. What exactly does Barzan, the source of the emergency liquidity, keep getting told? I’d also add that the auditors of their accounts need to be shot, it’s an insolvent and unviable entity and should not have been filed as a going concern. More red flags than a Nigerian promising me maximum ROI on some email……….
Then as for control, be under absolutely no illusion, Barzan has it.
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From: Ferrara
Joined: Dec 2005
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From: Overseas
That way, you'd get a capable training aricraft that is somewhat representative of the current UK FL capabilities as well as a common fleet for Red Air (because fighting bizjets has been pointless for years now). The issue will be the larger initial procurement cost, so I sadly don't see it happening. The UK is a world leader in short-sighted procurement and the idiocy of saving money in the short term to cripple future capability.
Joined: Mar 2003
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From: Warton on Sea
Yes, this is a bit of a can of worms. Any meaningful combat capability costs money, but, and it's a big but, if you combine the procurement for a future aggressor force / fleet support / JTAC training etc with your advanced trainer, then you could potentially make some signinficant long-term savings whilst significantly increasing FL capability. (And it's called something like the F/A-50!)
That way, you'd get a capable training aricraft that is somewhat representative of the current UK FL capabilities as well as a common fleet for Red Air (because fighting bizjets has been pointless for years now). The issue will be the larger initial procurement cost, so I sadly don't see it happening. The UK is a world leader in short-sighted procurement and the idiocy of saving money in the short term to cripple future capability.
That way, you'd get a capable training aricraft that is somewhat representative of the current UK FL capabilities as well as a common fleet for Red Air (because fighting bizjets has been pointless for years now). The issue will be the larger initial procurement cost, so I sadly don't see it happening. The UK is a world leader in short-sighted procurement and the idiocy of saving money in the short term to cripple future capability.
I don't think that Aeralis will build ALL the different options that they are portraying at present, but the current "urgent need" to get the Reds a new mount actually helps in my opinion.
On the matter of funding, I actually think that having the development funds coming from non-treasury sources will result in far better scrutiny and accountability. When the MoD buy stuff the money does not come out of anyone's pocket so there is not imperative to ensure the funds are being well used. Investors want to get their money back and with interest. HMG often justify the development costs by claiming that they will recoup them in export sales, rarely does this pan out. I am sure Barzan have done their homework and due diligence before offering up a considerable chunk of dosh, they see a profit in the business.
T
Last edited by Tarnished; 17th January 2026 at 07:51.
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From: Near the coast
Tarnished
https://www.raf.mod.uk/aircraft/hawk-t1/
The attached article suggests the Hawk T1 will go out of service after the 2029 display season.
How exactly do Aeralis go from a crayon drawing to a display team of flying jets in three years?
Nobody wants to see another successful British built training aircraft as much as I do (there’s a good chance I’ll end up flying whatever is chosen after all).
If Aeralis miss the Red Arrows boat, which they almost certainly have, they just don’t stack up against the current competition for the other roles being discussed.
BV
The attached article suggests the Hawk T1 will go out of service after the 2029 display season.
How exactly do Aeralis go from a crayon drawing to a display team of flying jets in three years?
Nobody wants to see another successful British built training aircraft as much as I do (there’s a good chance I’ll end up flying whatever is chosen after all).
If Aeralis miss the Red Arrows boat, which they almost certainly have, they just don’t stack up against the current competition for the other roles being discussed.
BV
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,139
Likes: 331
From: Royal Berkshire
Just maybe, CAS being brave enough to chop the Reds at end of T.1 life (or sooner) would be the very public media wake-up call 'joe public' needs to reinforce the terrible situation the RAF is in, regarding being hollowed out, capability gaps, and a broken training system. As long as the Reds keep trailing red-white-blue smoke over the Mall a few times per year, 'joe public' think we still have the RAF we had 30 or 40 years ago.
And you'd be surprised at how many people on the street, have no real idea how much its been hollowed out, because, we have the Reds so all is OK with the world.