BAE Systems Hawk Replacement?
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From: Wildest Surrey
The M (originally Aermacchi) 345 is a development of the M211 and is thus basically a 28 year old design; doesn't the RAF deserve something more recent?
The Aeralis is 'due to fly next year', a situation which has existed for several years.
The Aeralis is 'due to fly next year', a situation which has existed for several years.
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From: The 24th & a Half Century
Correct, the T345 is essentially a redesigned and modernised S211 whose lineage is circa 1982 give or take. The aircraft at Boscombe is in the U.K. for trials activity and is not being evaluated for use by either RAFAT or Phase 4. If, and I guess it’s still a big if, the RAF were to move ahead with replacing Hawk in total then unless you like small batch craft gin it’s T346, T-50 or T-7. As an outside bet, I wouldn’t put it past BAE to try and politicise this with a Typhoon for Hurjet deal or insist whatever is chosen is licensed built in the U.K. with some bespoke systems.
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From: aus
While I'm no expert on RAF pilot training (one will be along shortly), are RAF pilots not already streamed fast jet by the time they end up on the Hawk - so are unlikely to see an A-400 or A-330.
As for design concept date of aircraft in RAF service - 1960, Rivet Joint, 1966, Boeing 737 (basis of P-8 and Wedgetail).
As for design concept date of aircraft in RAF service - 1960, Rivet Joint, 1966, Boeing 737 (basis of P-8 and Wedgetail).
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From: Near the coast
Rattman
Close.
Grob 120 at Cranwell or Barkston Heath. Streamed after this to either Multi (Phenom), Rotary (Juno/Jupiter) or FJ (Texan). FJ candidates receive a little extra Grob 120 time before Texan.
Successfully completion of Texan will see progress onto Hawk T2. Both of these are at Valley.
The FJ stream currently have other options for aircraft and locations but the progression is broadly similar.
BV
Grob 120 at Cranwell or Barkston Heath. Streamed after this to either Multi (Phenom), Rotary (Juno/Jupiter) or FJ (Texan). FJ candidates receive a little extra Grob 120 time before Texan.
Successfully completion of Texan will see progress onto Hawk T2. Both of these are at Valley.
The FJ stream currently have other options for aircraft and locations but the progression is broadly similar.
BV
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 3,083
Likes: 253
From: London/Oxford/New York
Close.
Grob 120 at Cranwell or Barkston Heath. Streamed after this to either Multi (Phenom), Rotary (Juno/Jupiter) or FJ (Texan). FJ candidates receive a little extra Grob 120 time before Texan.
Successfully completion of Texan will see progress onto Hawk T2. Both of these are at Valley.
The FJ stream currently have other options for aircraft and locations but the progression is broadly similar.
BV
Grob 120 at Cranwell or Barkston Heath. Streamed after this to either Multi (Phenom), Rotary (Juno/Jupiter) or FJ (Texan). FJ candidates receive a little extra Grob 120 time before Texan.
Successfully completion of Texan will see progress onto Hawk T2. Both of these are at Valley.
The FJ stream currently have other options for aircraft and locations but the progression is broadly similar.
BV
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From: The 24th & a Half Century
Worth noting the syllabus flown on UAS (6 FTS) isn’t recognised as it was excluded from the scope of the training system.
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From: Wildest Surrey
It’s a good Q as to what they really do. EFT is no longer taught on Tutor within UKMFTS, presently I believe their (16 Sqn) main effort is UKR. What they do beyond that is convert folk to Tutor and some QFI instruction. Time to rethink that self-licking lollipop 🍭 that is CFS and its B2, B1, A2 nonsense.
Worth noting the syllabus flown on UAS (6 FTS) isn’t recognised as it was excluded from the scope of the training system.
Worth noting the syllabus flown on UAS (6 FTS) isn’t recognised as it was excluded from the scope of the training system.
Joined: Feb 2011
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From: Great Britain
Close.
Grob 120 at Cranwell or Barkston Heath. Streamed after this to either Multi (Phenom), Rotary (Juno/Jupiter) or FJ (Texan). FJ candidates receive a little extra Grob 120 time before Texan.
Successfully completion of Texan will see progress onto Hawk T2. Both of these are at Valley.
The FJ stream currently have other options for aircraft and locations but the progression is broadly similar.
BV
Grob 120 at Cranwell or Barkston Heath. Streamed after this to either Multi (Phenom), Rotary (Juno/Jupiter) or FJ (Texan). FJ candidates receive a little extra Grob 120 time before Texan.
Successfully completion of Texan will see progress onto Hawk T2. Both of these are at Valley.
The FJ stream currently have other options for aircraft and locations but the progression is broadly similar.
BV
Also, there are now 4 streams for RAF Pilots:
1. Fast Jet
2. Multi-Engine
3. Remotely Pilot Air Systems
4. Rotary Wing
All RAF Pilots do EFT on the Prefect -about 30hrs live fly and about 20hrs synthetic. Then they are streamed to one of 4 streams above.
Finally, RN FAA baby Pilots do roughly 20-25hrs on the Tutor for RN Flying Grading and the AAC do roughly 12-15hrs on the Tutor for Army Flying Grading. Thus, those going to helicopters at RAF Shawbury on 1FTS from the RN FAA and AAC never touch Prefect.
The other thing that 16 Sqn do is ISTAR Tutor Mission Aircrew flying training. An 8hr flying package of basic navigation, fuel management and comms exercises to build airmanship before some do more flying training on the King Air Avenger or PA-31 Panther. Sometimes this is farmed out to a UAS if 16 Sqn are busy with UKR baby pilots.
Amazing how out of date some folks are on here
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From: Near the coast
Cpl Clott
Since this thread is about the Hawk and my reply was tailored towards a previous post regarding the Hawk pathway, I’ll admit that I simplified things a little. But your extra detail is appreciated nonetheless.
BV
BV
Joined: May 2003
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From: The 24th & a Half Century
The Multi Pilots do some extra Prefect flying too, pre-MEPT. Known as Multi-Engine Lead In (MELIN).
Also, there are now 4 streams for RAF Pilots:
1. Fast Jet
2. Multi-Engine
3. Remotely Pilot Air Systems
4. Rotary Wing
All RAF Pilots do EFT on the Prefect -about 30hrs live fly and about 20hrs synthetic. Then they are streamed to one of 4 streams above.
Finally, RN FAA baby Pilots do roughly 20-25hrs on the Tutor for RN Flying Grading and the AAC do roughly 12-15hrs on the Tutor for Army Flying Grading. Thus, those going to helicopters at RAF Shawbury on 1FTS from the RN FAA and AAC never touch Prefect.
The other thing that 16 Sqn do is ISTAR Tutor Mission Aircrew flying training. An 8hr flying package of basic navigation, fuel management and comms exercises to build airmanship before some do more flying training on the King Air Avenger or PA-31 Panther. Sometimes this is farmed out to a UAS if 16 Sqn are busy with UKR baby pilots.
Amazing how out of date some folks are on here
Also, there are now 4 streams for RAF Pilots:
1. Fast Jet
2. Multi-Engine
3. Remotely Pilot Air Systems
4. Rotary Wing
All RAF Pilots do EFT on the Prefect -about 30hrs live fly and about 20hrs synthetic. Then they are streamed to one of 4 streams above.
Finally, RN FAA baby Pilots do roughly 20-25hrs on the Tutor for RN Flying Grading and the AAC do roughly 12-15hrs on the Tutor for Army Flying Grading. Thus, those going to helicopters at RAF Shawbury on 1FTS from the RN FAA and AAC never touch Prefect.
The other thing that 16 Sqn do is ISTAR Tutor Mission Aircrew flying training. An 8hr flying package of basic navigation, fuel management and comms exercises to build airmanship before some do more flying training on the King Air Avenger or PA-31 Panther. Sometimes this is farmed out to a UAS if 16 Sqn are busy with UKR baby pilots.
Amazing how out of date some folks are on here
Joined: May 2003
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From: London/Oxford/New York
It’s a good Q as to what they really do. EFT is no longer taught on Tutor within UKMFTS, presently I believe their (16 Sqn) main effort is UKR. What they do beyond that is convert folk to Tutor and some QFI instruction. Time to rethink that self-licking lollipop 🍭 that is CFS and its B2, B1, A2 nonsense.
Worth noting the syllabus flown on UAS (6 FTS) isn’t recognised as it was excluded from the scope of the training system.
Worth noting the syllabus flown on UAS (6 FTS) isn’t recognised as it was excluded from the scope of the training system.
And who trains Prefect QFI’s?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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From: Peripatetic
A bit of an exchange on twitter......
Nicholas Drummond:
"I understand that the RAF’s preferred option to replace ageing BAE Systems Hawk T1 and T2 aircraft is another Hawk - the Boeing / SAAB T-7 Red Hawk. This is considered to be a better intermediate step between the T-6 Texan trainer and Typhoon/ F-35 than Leonardo’s M346."
Bill Sweetman:
"Long version: T-7 is large, expensive, basically a supersonic airplane with the supersonic designed out of it. It's having serious issues, it's late, and even the US Navy (no longer requiring a CV-qual'd trainer) is looking at M-346, T-50 et al.
"Ask the Israelis what they think of the M-346's "limitations" and also, what they expect advanced trainers to do - introduce students to complex environments, early and at less $/hour than the fighter.
"You don't need something the size of a freaking M2000."
"I understand that the RAF’s preferred option to replace ageing BAE Systems Hawk T1 and T2 aircraft is another Hawk - the Boeing / SAAB T-7 Red Hawk. This is considered to be a better intermediate step between the T-6 Texan trainer and Typhoon/ F-35 than Leonardo’s M346."
Bill Sweetman:
"Long version: T-7 is large, expensive, basically a supersonic airplane with the supersonic designed out of it. It's having serious issues, it's late, and even the US Navy (no longer requiring a CV-qual'd trainer) is looking at M-346, T-50 et al.
"Ask the Israelis what they think of the M-346's "limitations" and also, what they expect advanced trainers to do - introduce students to complex environments, early and at less $/hour than the fighter.
"You don't need something the size of a freaking M2000."
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From: The Whyte House
One wonders whether we could look a bit more 'out of the box' and consider local manufacture of something like the KAI T-50. Similar flyaway cost to the '346 apparently.
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From: The 24th & a Half Century
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From: Somerset
Not after the AIR Staff have gold plated the spec, the Treasury have penny pinched the support contract and assorted Ministers have interfered with the procurement process in claimed the interest of jobs in UK.
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From: The back of beyond
Also, there are now 4 streams for RAF Pilots:
1. Fast Jet
2. Multi-Engine
3. Remotely Pilot Air Systems
4. Rotary Wing
1. Fast Jet
2. Multi-Engine
3. Remotely Pilot Air Systems
4. Rotary Wing