Undervalued Engineers?
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: UK
Joined: Jul 2022
Aviation Qualifications: LAME
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From: Down Sarf
When the UK armed forces contracted in the late 70s and 80s there was a rush of great engineering personnel into civilian roles, about the same time the civilian companies reduced their apprentice intakes dramatically, in fact, some stopped recruiting completely.
There is now a shortage across the industry of suitably qualified and competent mechanics and engineers.
I've no idea what the pay rates are in the armed forces but a post apprenticeship mechanic can now expect between £40k and £50k. Licenced Engineers, almost double that.
There is now a shortage across the industry of suitably qualified and competent mechanics and engineers.
I've no idea what the pay rates are in the armed forces but a post apprenticeship mechanic can now expect between £40k and £50k. Licenced Engineers, almost double that.
Joined: Jul 2022
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From: Down Sarf
Totally agree, I cannot get Mechanics or Licenced Engineers to fill the vacancies I have, and civi street wages far outstrips the pay the RAF offers. Plus you get to go home at night.
The RAF website mentions service benefits like subsidised food and gym being a perk that Civilians do not get on top of their wage.
As a Civi engineer I eat very well thank you, as I can afford too, because I get paid a lot more, so do not need subsidised food, no matter how good it isn’t.
My job comes with gym membership, health, dental, eye care, electric car schemes etc..
I can easily afford a mortgage, so some run down cheap married quarter slum is not required either..
Also I too can travel, as they mentioned that as a perk too, though the locals don’t tend to shoot at you on my trips abroad
According to these pay rates, a warrant officers wage doesn’t even come up to that of a LAE’s basic pay and that’s without the extra licences, types ratings, shift allowances etc, in-fact you would be looking at senior Sqn Leader, Wing Commander rates.
Royal Air Force Pay Scales 2024 - 2025 - Armed Forces - RAF Officers Pay - Armed Forces Pay Review Body -Fifty Third Report 53rd 2024 Rates - Other Ranks Pay Rates - RAF 2024 Pay Review
The RAF website mentions service benefits like subsidised food and gym being a perk that Civilians do not get on top of their wage.
As a Civi engineer I eat very well thank you, as I can afford too, because I get paid a lot more, so do not need subsidised food, no matter how good it isn’t.
My job comes with gym membership, health, dental, eye care, electric car schemes etc..
I can easily afford a mortgage, so some run down cheap married quarter slum is not required either..
Also I too can travel, as they mentioned that as a perk too, though the locals don’t tend to shoot at you on my trips abroad
According to these pay rates, a warrant officers wage doesn’t even come up to that of a LAE’s basic pay and that’s without the extra licences, types ratings, shift allowances etc, in-fact you would be looking at senior Sqn Leader, Wing Commander rates.
Royal Air Force Pay Scales 2024 - 2025 - Armed Forces - RAF Officers Pay - Armed Forces Pay Review Body -Fifty Third Report 53rd 2024 Rates - Other Ranks Pay Rates - RAF 2024 Pay Review
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From: Falling off the end of the thread
Actually you are a manager if you are pushing vacancies. Is your licence active or current? LAEs basic pay for the smaller regional operations has had to jump as there isn't enough of us. 50% pay rise this year. Love to know what company gives you those perks. Mine doesn't. Been too busy with a knacked bog on a kite with parts on it that shouldn't be on the tank according to all maintenance documentation on the subject!
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From: Hampshire
Krystal n Chips, sorry for the misunderstanding: I looked at the article and it was so devoid of real content there was nothing about the engineers beyond what the OP had quoted e.g. why is there a shortage. It was in no way a comment on your ability to commentate informatively on the issue.
I'm not an engineer but have spent the majority the of my working life in situations where without good engineers and engineering tradespeople I would have been sat twiddling my thumbs. It always staggers me the lack of respect and status engineers are given in a country which was built on engineering innovation and its exploitation.
I'm not an engineer but have spent the majority the of my working life in situations where without good engineers and engineering tradespeople I would have been sat twiddling my thumbs. It always staggers me the lack of respect and status engineers are given in a country which was built on engineering innovation and its exploitation.
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: UK
However, Sir Ben Wallace, the former defence secretary, called on Labour to increase defence spending in the Oct 30 Budget in order to better protect the nation’s security.
He said: “People should be under no illusion that unless Rachel Reeves commits to a date of spending 2.5 per cent of GDP on defence, and increases this spending this year and next year to ensure defence spending matches the rising threat, then defence will be hollowed out and this will put the men and women of our Armed Forces at risk.
“Today it is helicopters. We have already seen the hollowing out of our navy crews. Tomorrow it will be something else.”
Quite visionary ... I wonder what his background was, which allows him such clarity of view ? .......... Oh ! - I see !
He said: “People should be under no illusion that unless Rachel Reeves commits to a date of spending 2.5 per cent of GDP on defence, and increases this spending this year and next year to ensure defence spending matches the rising threat, then defence will be hollowed out and this will put the men and women of our Armed Forces at risk.
“Today it is helicopters. We have already seen the hollowing out of our navy crews. Tomorrow it will be something else.”
Quite visionary ... I wonder what his background was, which allows him such clarity of view ? .......... Oh ! - I see !
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From: Wildest Surrey
A similar situation exists in the UK with trained civilian ATC technicians; there aren't enough being trained or on the market sometimes leading to delays in rectifying problems.
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From: UK
Not sure where it's going to end but there seems to be lots of brand new cars in the car park. 😁
Joined: May 2007
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From: South Glos
The large well-known UK defence contractor I work for is desperate to expand but simply cannot recruit enough trained engineers. They’ve been recruiting like mad for the last couple of years. Our customers all want more production and faster deliveries, especially since the Ukraine events but we’ve let the defence industrial base atrophy and now we can’t increase our pitiful capacity. Short term focussed management and politicians.
Like many others, my father predicted all this 25/30 years ago.
Like many others, my father predicted all this 25/30 years ago.
Joined: May 2006
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From: Around
The large well-known UK defence contractor I work for is desperate to expand but simply cannot recruit enough trained engineers. They’ve been recruiting like mad for the last couple of years. Our customers all want more production and faster deliveries, especially since the Ukraine events but we’ve let the defence industrial base atrophy and now we can’t increase our pitiful capacity. Short term focussed management and politicians.
Like many others, my father predicted all this 25/30 years ago.
Like many others, my father predicted all this 25/30 years ago.
Joined: Dec 2012
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From: Co. Down
I gained my A+C licences from the Air Registration Board in 1969, a proper document resembling the old British blue passport only maroon colour, becoming only the third licensed engineer in Ireland. We rejoiced in the title of grease-monkeys while many of the chosen few sported their white cuffs and blazers ... in fact even then most people looked down on the mechanical trades until they needed their machinery fixed.
My friend Noel Orr made a shrewd comment when he obtained the Honda motorcycle agency for Northern Ireland in 1970. "In our day most teenagers had dirty fingernails from tinkering with our bikes and old cars. Youngsters now won't get their hands dirty, when their bike needs service they throw it in to me which is fine for my bank balance but I'm already finding it hard to get good mechanics. In Germany they respect all aspects of engineering, here we don't. And that's bad news for this country."
I'm long retired and can't roll under cars or crawl down fuselages any more, but I fear Noel's warning is as true now as it was 54 years ago. My last licences were strips of plastic pockets with bits of paper like bus tickets for each qualification as engineer or pilot. I took grim humour in waving my instrument rating as the bit of paper which had cost me £4000 even using my own aircraft, but I valued my LAE higher than anything else. My LAE number, still crystal clear on my declining brain, is perfect for my bank PIN.
My friend Noel Orr made a shrewd comment when he obtained the Honda motorcycle agency for Northern Ireland in 1970. "In our day most teenagers had dirty fingernails from tinkering with our bikes and old cars. Youngsters now won't get their hands dirty, when their bike needs service they throw it in to me which is fine for my bank balance but I'm already finding it hard to get good mechanics. In Germany they respect all aspects of engineering, here we don't. And that's bad news for this country."
I'm long retired and can't roll under cars or crawl down fuselages any more, but I fear Noel's warning is as true now as it was 54 years ago. My last licences were strips of plastic pockets with bits of paper like bus tickets for each qualification as engineer or pilot. I took grim humour in waving my instrument rating as the bit of paper which had cost me £4000 even using my own aircraft, but I valued my LAE higher than anything else. My LAE number, still crystal clear on my declining brain, is perfect for my bank PIN.
Last edited by Geriaviator; 27th October 2024 at 18:38.
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From: Canada
In Germany they respect all aspects of engineering, here we don't. And that's bad news for this country."
Joined: Oct 2013
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From: UK
We're talking about technicians/fitters/mechanics aren't we? Apprenticeships are what is needed, some even degree apprenticeships. The UK isn't set up to train the required amount of people with the required knowledge. Why on earth would we need them, some people that know better decided that it wouldn't be necessary to maintain that capability. Surely they were paid reassuringly enough money to make good decisions that protect capability at the time and in the future. Surely, they knew best.
As you can tell...this sort of thinking f'ing infuriates me, and it is endemic in the UK.
As you can tell...this sort of thinking f'ing infuriates me, and it is endemic in the UK.
Joined: Jul 2022
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From: Down Sarf
Depends whom you work for. I don't work for a big player. My B1.1 was not a company freebie and never been in a place to get B2 under the changes of 2012. I work on the line too for one of the worse payers. I am on 25K less. Actually it was 50K less until this year. I see guys spend less time on their 73s on an LC1 than I do on my type.