Undervalued Engineers?

[Diff Tail Shim]

Originally Posted by TURIN

Last time I looked £80k was the median when basic plus shift and licence pay was included. I believe United Airlines at LHR are paying in excess of £100k, Virgin is next, Jet2 up in the regions follows that then BA etc. Last I heard from a mate at BA was that all the Virgin guys were jumping to United and BA were filling the gaps at Virgin. Jet2 is even drawing LAEs back from the Sandpit.
Not sure where it's going to end but there seems to be lots of brand new cars in the car park. 😁

All my stuff is now in basic pay. So is pensionable. My old Dagenham Dustbin has been replaced by a newer one. One still has to live in the sarf and those wages cover the big house prices. KLM UKE is the worse payer I believe.
Damage was done to UK engineering by the witch Hilda.

[cynicalint]

Without detracting from the argument about undervalued engineers, the same principle applied to QFIs. Civilianise the training, the trainers recruit ex servicemen cheaply, the RAF does not train QFIS, the supply of RAF QFIs dries up, the civilians cannot produce the goods and the system fails. Penny pinching by accountants, who understand the cost of everything, but nothing about the value.

[BEagle]

cynicalint, that was precisely the point I made to when some potential MFTS people came sniffing around to speak to us...

Also some of the first QFIs who left the RAF to work for a contractor instructing at basic level soon found that the pay rates which had been quoted were nothing like what they were being paid. Also they found that the contractor was assuming that the salary on offer when added to the service penion would be equal to the former military pay. Needless to say, they left the organisation pdq!

One ex-A1 QFI told me that during his 'acceptance check' with a contractor's instructor, which involved close formation, he'd actually had to take control and teach the checker how to fly close formation, because she was so bad!

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by cynicalint

Without detracting from the argument about undervalued engineers, the same principle applied to QFIs. Civilianise the training, the trainers recruit ex servicemen cheaply, the RAF does not train QFIS, the supply of RAF QFIs dries up, the civilians cannot produce the goods and the system fails. Penny pinching by accountants, who understand the cost of everything, but nothing about the value.

Yeah, its not exactly rocket science is it...

But, its happening everywhere in all sorts of roles and industries.......all accountancy and political driven short-sightedness from being too far away from the coal faces.

[pr00ne]

Originally Posted by unmanned_droid

We're talking about technicians/fitters/mechanics aren't we? Apprenticeships are what is needed, some even degree apprenticeships. The UK isn't set up to train the required amount of people with the required knowledge. Why on earth would we need them, some people that know better decided that it wouldn't be necessary to maintain that capability. Surely they were paid reassuringly enough money to make good decisions that protect capability at the time and in the future. Surely, they knew best.

As you can tell...this sort of thinking f'ing infuriates me, and it is endemic in the UK.

Er, UK companies have some pretty large apprenticeship schemes in the technical field, and they are growing ever larger all the time. BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce, MBDA, JCB, JLR, Bentley, Aston Martin, Mclaren, Babcock, Tata Steel, British Steel and Sheffield Forgemasters are just some of the companies who are trumpeting record apprenticeship intakes.

[TURIN]

Good to hear that Proone.
It's long overdue, and hopefully those apprentices will have bright and lucrative futures.

[Flap Track 6]

Originally Posted by pr00ne

Er, UK companies have some pretty large apprenticeship schemes in the technical field, and they are growing ever larger all the time. BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce, MBDA, JCB, JLR, Bentley, Aston Martin, Mclaren, Babcock, Tata Steel, British Steel and Sheffield Forgemasters are just some of the companies who are trumpeting record apprenticeship intakes.

Yes indeed, but go back 25 or 30 years and a lot of those companies were cutting back on their training programs because they were overstaffed. There weren’t many training opportunities in the mid to late nineties, hence the huge demographic problem we are now experiencing.
FWIW, I started my technician apprenticeship in 1984 - there weren’t many opportunities in those days, either. It wasn’t a great time for engineering investment.

[Flap Track 6]

Originally Posted by cynicalint

Without detracting from the argument about undervalued engineers, the same principle applied to QFIs. Civilianise the training, the trainers recruit ex servicemen cheaply, the RAF does not train QFIS, the supply of RAF QFIs dries up, the civilians cannot produce the goods and the system fails. Penny pinching by accountants, who understand the cost of everything, but nothing about the value.

This was the point my father made in the nineties to the short term focussed management at the large well-known aerospace company he worked for.
The management stated that they were ending their training programs and recruiting trained people on the open market because it would be cheaper and produce results quicker. My father pointed out that this would only work for so long until the supply of available people dried up because no one was training up any more engineers.

[NutLoose]

Originally Posted by cynicalint

Without detracting from the argument about undervalued engineers, the same principle applied to QFIs. Civilianise the training, the trainers recruit ex servicemen cheaply, the RAF does not train QFIS, the supply of RAF QFIs dries up, the civilians cannot produce the goods and the system fails. Penny pinching by accountants, who understand the cost of everything, but nothing about the value.

The same went for a lot of the RAF, they got rid of Painters, aircraft welders, etc and farmed it all out to civi street to save money, so everything took three times longer to get sorted and often not as good, one did wonder what they would have done in a war when the manning that kept everything running in the background was no longer there. People took pride in their work and the job they were doing in the military, a company doing it on the cheap to get the contract, not so.

[Lomon]

It isn't just engineers though!
In ATC a civvie (ie Sgt-Flt Lt) controller for NATS earns £80-£100k pa (plus a shift allowance of £15-£30k) and an assistant (SAC-Cpl equivalent) is £35-£60k)

SNCO level HR people in civvie street earn over £55k compared to the £40k ish the RAF pays.

[Krystal n chips]

Originally Posted by BEagle

cynicalint, that was precisely the point I made to when some potential MFTS people came sniffing around to speak to us...

Also some of the first QFIs who left the RAF to work for a contractor instructing at basic level soon found that the pay rates which had been quoted were nothing like what they were being paid. Also they found that the contractor was assuming that the salary on offer when added to the service penion would be equal to the former military pay. Needless to say, they left the organisation pdq!

One ex-A1 QFI told me that during his 'acceptance check' with a contractor's instructor, which involved close formation, he'd actually had to take control and teach the checker how to fly close formation, because she was so bad!

That's interesting because, presumably, they were given the salary range prior to joining?. Unlike the following.

Not so long ago, a not so cunning plan was proposed to consolidate training, all three services, and free up what is now termed defence estates. This plan was called....Metrix. In theory, based at St Athan, cue artists impressions of leafy roads, luxury living, the usual promotional BS in fact. However, this plan seemed to fluctuate at times, funding being mentioned, in passing, as to why. But then, some sort of momentum occurred and visits from said organisation began.

It would be fair to say they didn't endear themselves to the RAF, let alone us, and gave the impression it was a done deal (which it was far from) and they were there to take over. Enter the various interviews, or "scoping" as they termed it. Enter also Ms Vacuous from HR, only capable of speaking in HR speak, and, one suitably attired, snake oil yooof. The questions set the tone. "did I have any experience as an engineer ?" "what do you do ?" ....faced with such a target rich couple, I indulged myself at their expense. But, eventually, we got around to remuneration. The answer to my question, inc pension plan, was...."competitive."....so I asked for something more tangible. I was curtly informed I would be advised, "IF" I was selected ...

But then came a more telling meeting, one of those semi formal style types, conducted by the front man, a former senior officer no less. 0/10 for presentation / 0/10 for conviction 0/10 overall in fact, not that the audience were overly enthused anyway. But then came the killer question from a usually quiet individual. along the lines of, so far nobody has mentioned pay scales, would TUPE be applied and, what sort of redundancy package would be offered.

At this point, one of the minders intervened and demanded to know why he was asking these questions. His calm response included a selection of Anglo Saxon words and phrases....the meeting, was, as they say, rapidly adjourned.

Karma came a short while later when the project was, sensibly, cancelled. Those on the Station were given 1hr to clear their desks / leave. I understand the RAF "kindly helped" them to find the main gate.

We never did find out the proposed, and probably mythical, salary scales or pension plans.

[unmanned_droid]

Originally Posted by pr00ne

Er, UK companies have some pretty large apprenticeship schemes in the technical field, and they are growing ever larger all the time. BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce, MBDA, JCB, JLR, Bentley, Aston Martin, Mclaren, Babcock, Tata Steel, British Steel and Sheffield Forgemasters are just some of the companies who are trumpeting record apprenticeship intakes.

And yet somehow some types of apprenticeship, as highlighted in this thread are in dire need. These companies aren't charities - they recruit for their needs and these will be a fraction of what they were taking on 20+ years ago.

Trumpeting intake figures also doesn't take in to account attrition over the course of apprenticeship training.

And these apprentices will be useful in 3-5 years time if they start this year.

[Diff Tail Shim]

Originally Posted by unmanned_droid

And yet somehow some types of apprenticeship, as highlighted in this thread are in dire need. These companies aren't charities - they recruit for their needs and these will be a fraction of what they were taking on 20+ years ago.

Trumpeting intake figures also doesn't take in to account attrition over the course of apprenticeship training.

And these apprentices will be useful in 3-5 years time if they start this year.

Licenced aircraft engineer will be even longer. Best LAEs now do come from the proper apprenticeship schemes and not the Licence factories.

[NutLoose]

Modern apprenticeship do not last that long unmanned droid, they are a ghost of their past service period.

The time it takes to complete a Modern Apprenticeship can vary, but is usually between one and four years. The length of the apprenticeship depends on the individual's training plan, which takes into account their skills, experience, and the demands of the apprenticeship. Progress is measured by the skills the apprentice acquires, not by time. ​​​​​​​

[Geriaviator]

Sorry to post again but I still feel very bitter about this. Over half a century ago Belfast Technical College, which had trained apprentices for the shipyard, Shorts aircraft factory, motor mechanics, electrical technicians, plumbers -- all the trades we now hire in from East Europe -- was renamed the Polytechnic, and later the University of Ulster. Who would want the old, dirty manual jobs when they could go to 'Uni' preferably after a gap year junketing around the world?

Most of the old industries have gone too and as of this year the country can't make its own steel, can't generate its own electricity when it's calm and dull, can't feed itself because farms have been merged into vast subsidy-attracting multinationals, and all too many are finding the years at 'Uni' have indebted them for decades to come. Almost 2 million students have student debt of £50k or more, but they have degrees in meejah studies, social engineering etc.

Just try finding a plumber or builder, mechanic aircraft or car ...

[Rigga]

" Originally Posted by pr00ne
Er, UK companies have some pretty large apprenticeship schemes in the technical field, and they are growing ever larger all the time. BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce, MBDA, JCB, JLR, Bentley, Aston Martin, Mclaren, Babcock, Tata Steel, British Steel and Sheffield Forgemasters are just some of the companies who are trumpeting record apprenticeship intakes."

All very well for PRODUCTION companies who train their apprentices to be their future home-grown engineers - but none of which teach the maintenance of aircraft except at Fitter/Mechanic level for military contracts. What is lacking in this underspending training contract are people who are qualified to sign off CIVIL aircraft maintenance to Cat B & C levels.

[NutLoose]

I can, and a form 4 holder

[Shackman]

I see in the Sunday Express that there is a plan to move all pilot training (presumably fast jet?) training to the US due to a shortage of aircraft in the UK. MFTS is obviously working well (??) but could this also be laid at the door of a lack of engineers to service/repair the aircraft as discussed earlier in the thread?

[DuckDodgers]

Originally Posted by Shackman

I see in the Sunday Express that there is a plan to move all pilot training (presumably fast jet?) training to the US due to a shortage of aircraft in the UK. MFTS is obviously working well (??) but could this also be laid at the door of a lack of engineers to service/repair the aircraft as discussed earlier in the thread?

Too funny - the comedy club in full swing. I’d probably believe it a little more if it laboured on Hawk T2 availability and through wave reliability (assuming it starts on the first) along with mil instructor shortfall. As for engineers, oh myyy, there’s c300 on Hawk alone at VLY.

[NutLoose]

I wonder what the next step will be, farm out our combat ability as well?

Surely as during WW2, you then have to do further training in the U.K. for procedures, weather and terrain differences, mind you the Germans got by with it for years.