NATO vs Russia
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Why do some countries think they can pay less than the minimum amount? Is it not right that they should be called out on this? I may disagree with the manner in which they are being called out but it is right that they should be called out imho.
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I disagree. Are you saying it is wrong to call out NATO members who have consistently paid less than the minimum agreed amount. I may not agree with the way Trump is going about it but he is quite right to call out countries who are not contributing as they should.
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No, he just keeps the media focus on himself - that's all, no ulterior motive or underlying reason, just doing what he has done in the past - dominating the media with ever more outrageous statements.
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Quote:The 2% defence investment guideline
In 2006, NATO Defence Ministers agreed to commit a minimum of 2% of their Gross Domestic Product (GDP) to defence spending to continue to ensure the Alliance's military readiness. This guideline also serves as an indicator of a country's political will to contribute to NATO's common defence efforts since the defence capacity of each member has an impact on the overall perception of the Alliance's credibility as a politico-military organisation.
Unquote:
In which world can it be both an agreement and a guideline?
Similarly, is there a single reason why any NATO country cannot contribute 2% of its GDP? The inference is clear. Some countries want gold standard cover at cut rate premiums.
Last edited by BANANASBANANAS; 12th Feb 2024 at 07:42.
They agreed to move towards the goal of two percent GDP defence spending. Which they do. They did not commit to pay two percent right away.
That is open to interpretation and the ‘agreement’’ does need tightening up. On the one hand the document does make reference to ‘guideline’ but then goes on about ‘an agreement’ to contribute a minimum of 2% of GDP each year.
Quote:The 2% defence investment guideline
In 2006, NATO Defence Ministers agreed to commit a minimum of 2% of their Gross Domestic Product (GDP) to defence spending to continue to ensure the Alliance's military readiness. This guideline also serves as an indicator of a country's political will to contribute to NATO's common defence efforts since the defence capacity of each member has an impact on the overall perception of the Alliance's credibility as a politico-military organisation.
Unquote:
In which world can it be both an agreement and a guideline?
Similarly, is there a single reason why any NATO country cannot contribute 2% of its GDP? The inference is clear. Some countries want gold standard cover at cut rate premium.
Quote:The 2% defence investment guideline
In 2006, NATO Defence Ministers agreed to commit a minimum of 2% of their Gross Domestic Product (GDP) to defence spending to continue to ensure the Alliance's military readiness. This guideline also serves as an indicator of a country's political will to contribute to NATO's common defence efforts since the defence capacity of each member has an impact on the overall perception of the Alliance's credibility as a politico-military organisation.
Unquote:
In which world can it be both an agreement and a guideline?
Similarly, is there a single reason why any NATO country cannot contribute 2% of its GDP? The inference is clear. Some countries want gold standard cover at cut rate premium.
Last edited by mopardave; 12th Feb 2024 at 09:23. Reason: addition
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
As for Donald's comments, a recommended book for every America voter before November. "Too Much and Never Enough", by Mary Trump, his niece. Subtitled "How my family created the world's most dangerous man". It gives a good understanding of his mindset. Written during his first, and hopefully only, term in office.
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I think we all know that it is best to win the war with Russia in Ukraine, rather than have to fight it in the Baltic states, Poland, Romania, Moldova etc, ourselves. My view is very simple. If you think the price of beating Russia in Ukraine is high, try letting Russia win in Ukraine - the price of that will be astronomical. Now is not the time to save a few cents on defence spending in any NATO country.
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Taken from the Guardian article linked above - I think just about sums it up
Another Republican who spoke in support of Trump’s comments was Florida US senator Marco Rubio. Rubio sought to downplay the meaning of Trump’s remarks, made two days after former Fox News host and Trump ally Tucker Carlson conducted a lengthy, virtually free-ride interview with Putin.
“Trump was talking about a story that happened in the past when he was president,” Rubio told CNN. “He didn’t pull us out of Nato, and American troops are stationed throughout Europe then as they are today.”
“Donald Trump is telling a story,” Rubio continued. “He’s not a member of the council on foreign relations. He doesn’t talk like a traditional politician, and you’d think people could have figured that out by now. He said Nato was broke or busted until he took over because people weren’t paying their dues and he used leverage to get them to step up to the plate.”
“Trump was talking about a story that happened in the past when he was president,” Rubio told CNN. “He didn’t pull us out of Nato, and American troops are stationed throughout Europe then as they are today.”
“Donald Trump is telling a story,” Rubio continued. “He’s not a member of the council on foreign relations. He doesn’t talk like a traditional politician, and you’d think people could have figured that out by now. He said Nato was broke or busted until he took over because people weren’t paying their dues and he used leverage to get them to step up to the plate.”
The country with the highest % of GDP in NATO is Greece. US number 2. Given the economic problems Greece had to face, it doeas seem unlikely that others couldn't meet the 2% "guideline"
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The German government has declared they will meet two percent this year and midterm every year.
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And we fall for this EVERY TIME. We're now talking about what he said, not what he's done and will do in the future if given the chance, and we're also giving him yet more free advertising. Remember the toilet paper on the shoe? That distraction kept everyone busy for several days and gave him cover to do other things
It's the oldest conjuring trick in the world - make them focus on the wrong hand
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I'm sorry but I disagree with you here. It's my opinion that he doesn't care one way or another about anything other than himself and by extension the base that he needs to put him and keep him in power
And we fall for this EVERY TIME. We're now talking about what he said, not what he's done and will do in the future if given the chance, and we're also giving him yet more free advertising. Remember the toilet paper on the shoe? That distraction kept everyone busy for several days and gave him cover to do other things
It's the oldest conjuring trick in the world - make them focus on the wrong hand
And we fall for this EVERY TIME. We're now talking about what he said, not what he's done and will do in the future if given the chance, and we're also giving him yet more free advertising. Remember the toilet paper on the shoe? That distraction kept everyone busy for several days and gave him cover to do other things
It's the oldest conjuring trick in the world - make them focus on the wrong hand
This is the NATO V Russia thread, not the Trump thread.
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I disagree. Are you saying it is wrong to call out NATO members who have consistently paid less than the minimum agreed amount. I may not agree with the way Trump is going about it but he is quite right to call out countries who are not contributing as they should.
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He is right in doing so. The way he does it though has a good chance of leading to terrible misunderstandings including WWIII. Putin may mistake the message meant for the allies as an invitation to do stupid things with unexpected consequences. Unclear messaging/expectations has invited Putin to his last stupidity. Had he known what he knows now, he surely wouldn't have done that. Would be sad if Vlad finds out that invading Norway upon a stupid invitation by the Orange guy finally led to extinction of mankind.
But, all the more reason to keep the $ flowing to Ukraine and for other NATO countries to ensure they are ready - most are not.