Red Arrows - toxic culture
I'm not convinced about the recruitment argument but there must be some soft power gain from RAFAT, in the same way that France and Italy must get some benefit from their equivalents.
Beagle, you write that as if you know that that is the case, whereas I’d be willing to bet that you wrote it in hope. It’s time for a proper change from a system that has been in place for much of my RAF career. I feel rather sad that one of those evicted from the team last year (earlier?) was a student at Wyton when I was staff. I suspect that there was something of the toxic culture on his FJ tour before he joined the team, but that’s as much conjecture as your assertion.
It's exactly how I saw it. I was in synchro lead's back seat on that sortie.
A genuine question born of some ignorance and some insight:
Does RAFAT ........... about a dozen airframes, top guns and top trades, have a war role deep inside a war book?
As in swift coat of paint, swift bolt on some sort of ordnance, and last ditch?
My insight is that I had some involvement in War Books in the 80s and 90s, when comparable measures were planned.
If the answer is NO, then, in these troubled times, I would disband and redeploy the Reds.
Does RAFAT ........... about a dozen airframes, top guns and top trades, have a war role deep inside a war book?
As in swift coat of paint, swift bolt on some sort of ordnance, and last ditch?
My insight is that I had some involvement in War Books in the 80s and 90s, when comparable measures were planned.
If the answer is NO, then, in these troubled times, I would disband and redeploy the Reds.
A genuine question born of some ignorance and some insight:
Does RAFAT ........... about a dozen airframes, top guns and top trades, have a war role deep inside a war book?
As in swift coat of paint, swift bolt on some sort of ordnance, and last ditch?
My insight is that I had some involvement in War Books in the 80s and 90s, when comparable measures were planned.
If the answer is NO, then, in these troubled times, I would disband and redeploy the Reds.
Does RAFAT ........... about a dozen airframes, top guns and top trades, have a war role deep inside a war book?
As in swift coat of paint, swift bolt on some sort of ordnance, and last ditch?
My insight is that I had some involvement in War Books in the 80s and 90s, when comparable measures were planned.
If the answer is NO, then, in these troubled times, I would disband and redeploy the Reds.
I totally agree with Diff Tail Shim that it would be a very sad day for the country if the team ever were to be disbanded- they have served our country proud for years and the work they put in to make it look easy is legend.Every occasion when they display is given a huge boost - there’s much more to life than the bottom line!
from my (extremely limited) display flying experience it is b hard work ,usually at weekends and you learn ‘a lot about flying’ ! It is not just a joy ride!
from my (extremely limited) display flying experience it is b hard work ,usually at weekends and you learn ‘a lot about flying’ ! It is not just a joy ride!
Last edited by mahogany bob; 9th Nov 2023 at 07:54.
Many, many years ago, I was in command of a C130 in support of a Red Arrows detachment overseas. As it was the end of the season, the entourage included the new recruits for the following season ( both Red and Blue ) and the Air Commodore CFS and his own group of hangers on. On arrival at Scampton, I was asked to visit the Team Managers Office ( S/L Henry something ) and was given a pre-emptive ‘bollocking’ for my crew warning against any bad behaviour by Truckies on tour in our nasty green grow bags.
Well, all went swimmingly well until we arrived in a friendly Middle Eastern Country and were ensconced in a very agreeable Hotel within the City Walls. Truckies being Truckies we were not very interested in Cocktail parties so legged it into the town to find a decent restaurant. The evening almost over we returned to the Hotel for a nightcap only to find a pissed up group of Reds, including Senior Officers, creating mayhem which included one ‘Red’ walking through a plate glass window fortunately with only a few flesh wounds - it may have been the next seasons leader but as I said, it was a very long time ago.
Apparently some things don’t change !
Well, all went swimmingly well until we arrived in a friendly Middle Eastern Country and were ensconced in a very agreeable Hotel within the City Walls. Truckies being Truckies we were not very interested in Cocktail parties so legged it into the town to find a decent restaurant. The evening almost over we returned to the Hotel for a nightcap only to find a pissed up group of Reds, including Senior Officers, creating mayhem which included one ‘Red’ walking through a plate glass window fortunately with only a few flesh wounds - it may have been the next seasons leader but as I said, it was a very long time ago.
Apparently some things don’t change !
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The Hawks in the old days did have the auxiliary fighter role. Over a third of a century ago. Disband the Reds? You must be bonkers! Its the most flying anyone gets in the Air Force these days I wager. Certainly my mate whom is on them. Had virtually sod all post his QFI tour. But his is the opposite to the Bad Apples taken out. You know the UK is gone if the Reds go.
LangleyBaston
The answer is a categorical no. Even back in the days that a ‘war role’ was touted for Hawks it was the Hawk T1W which was capable of launching a sidewinder. The Red Arrows Hawks are not weapons capable in any way.
Aside from these points, if the UK were to reach a point where arming Hawk T1s were considered necessary (I’m not talking historically, I’m talking about contemporary Britain) then the country is already lost and you may as well just ask the Reds to give a display to the new occupying army as a way to welcome them.
BV
Aside from these points, if the UK were to reach a point where arming Hawk T1s were considered necessary (I’m not talking historically, I’m talking about contemporary Britain) then the country is already lost and you may as well just ask the Reds to give a display to the new occupying army as a way to welcome them.
BV
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No problem, there's a precedent from 1940. When invasion was imminent Tiger Moths were fitted with bomb racks and apparently successful trials were done with a paraslasher scythe blade suspended beneath the Tiger on a pole. Instructors would use this weapon against the Wehrmacht descending on their parachutes. Rather like my streamer-cutting with toilet rolls three decades later, I suppose 
The answer is a categorical no. Even back in the days that a ‘war role’ was touted for Hawks it was the Hawk T1W which was capable of launching a sidewinder. The Red Arrows Hawks are not weapons capable in any way.
Aside from these points, if the UK were to reach a point where arming Hawk T1s were considered necessary (I’m not talking historically, I’m talking about contemporary Britain) then the country is already lost and you may as well just ask the Reds to give a display to the new occupying army as a way to welcome them.
BV
Aside from these points, if the UK were to reach a point where arming Hawk T1s were considered necessary (I’m not talking historically, I’m talking about contemporary Britain) then the country is already lost and you may as well just ask the Reds to give a display to the new occupying army as a way to welcome them.
BV
A genuine question born of some ignorance and some insight:
Does RAFAT ........... about a dozen airframes, top guns and top trades, have a war role deep inside a war book?
As in swift coat of paint, swift bolt on some sort of ordnance, and last ditch?
My insight is that I had some involvement in War Books in the 80s and 90s, when comparable measures were planned.
If the answer is NO, then, in these troubled times, I would disband and redeploy the Reds.
Does RAFAT ........... about a dozen airframes, top guns and top trades, have a war role deep inside a war book?
As in swift coat of paint, swift bolt on some sort of ordnance, and last ditch?
My insight is that I had some involvement in War Books in the 80s and 90s, when comparable measures were planned.
If the answer is NO, then, in these troubled times, I would disband and redeploy the Reds.
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It might be worth mentioning the elitist / arrogance culture was around in Gnat days.
They had a habit of arriving at Valley with a collection of u/s wheels / brakes / maxarets and some hyd components, depleting our stock, and leaving us to do the rectification work to recover the stock. The RAF, as we know, didn't pay overtime.
Then came the "request " one year for bodies to help with the Winter servicing programme. There was a notable lack of volunteers at Valley, hence some of us were simply dispatched in the end. On arrival at sunny Kemble, we went into the Reds crewroom....and were immediately evicted, being told in no uncertain terms, it was "Reds only "!..we were directed to 4Sqdn's instead.
They showed no interest in the work we were doing, ostensibly on their behalf, and no hospitality was offered. Then, suddenly, after about 3 weeks, we were deemed surplus to requirement one day and pointed in the direction of Valley....eventually, a brief letter of token "thanks " found its way to Valley and our boss was apologetic, and unimpressed, having been made aware of what had transpired.
Beagle may wish to muse as to why his "feral Reds haters " came about.
Cheltenham station was nice though, hanging floral baskets being not so prominent at Holyhead
They had a habit of arriving at Valley with a collection of u/s wheels / brakes / maxarets and some hyd components, depleting our stock, and leaving us to do the rectification work to recover the stock. The RAF, as we know, didn't pay overtime.
Then came the "request " one year for bodies to help with the Winter servicing programme. There was a notable lack of volunteers at Valley, hence some of us were simply dispatched in the end. On arrival at sunny Kemble, we went into the Reds crewroom....and were immediately evicted, being told in no uncertain terms, it was "Reds only "!..we were directed to 4Sqdn's instead.
They showed no interest in the work we were doing, ostensibly on their behalf, and no hospitality was offered. Then, suddenly, after about 3 weeks, we were deemed surplus to requirement one day and pointed in the direction of Valley....eventually, a brief letter of token "thanks " found its way to Valley and our boss was apologetic, and unimpressed, having been made aware of what had transpired.
Beagle may wish to muse as to why his "feral Reds haters " came about.
Cheltenham station was nice though, hanging floral baskets being not so prominent at Holyhead
The answer is a categorical no. Even back in the days that a ‘war role’ was touted for Hawks it was the Hawk T1W which was capable of launching a sidewinder. The Red Arrows Hawks are not weapons capable in any way.
Aside from these points, if the UK were to reach a point where arming Hawk T1s were considered necessary (I’m not talking historically, I’m talking about contemporary Britain) then the country is already lost and you may as well just ask the Reds to give a display to the new occupying army as a way to welcome them.
BV
Aside from these points, if the UK were to reach a point where arming Hawk T1s were considered necessary (I’m not talking historically, I’m talking about contemporary Britain) then the country is already lost and you may as well just ask the Reds to give a display to the new occupying army as a way to welcome them.
BV
Jag rigger
That showed me! Notwithstanding that picture, the present day Red Arrows Hawks are not weapons capable and neither would we want or need them to be.
BV
BV
The old PR stories of RAFAT having a war role was for the pilots not the aircraft and, in the 80s, they used to do a week of air defence training at Brawdy each year. I'm also pretty sure that the aircraft in the infamous photo of the RAFAT Hawk carrying winders and a gun was a plain old T1. The only other war role for all training aircraft back then was comms and VIP transport - supposedly.
But the answer is still no!
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BN
You’d think I’d have remembered the difference between the T1W and the T1A but it’s obviously been too long (13 years since I flew a T1 of any variety). My bad.
None of that changes my original answer though.
BV
None of that changes my original answer though.
BV
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war role
whilst standing next to a Gnat on static display at a big air show 2 keen cadets asked if had any weapons.
Answer yes - can’t you see the big spear (the pitot ) at the front - on a good day you could impale about 6 of the enemy in the ground attack role !
They believed every word!
whilst standing next to a Gnat on static display at a big air show 2 keen cadets asked if had any weapons.
Answer yes - can’t you see the big spear (the pitot ) at the front - on a good day you could impale about 6 of the enemy in the ground attack role !
They believed every word!
RAFAT Hawks were among those given AIM-9L wiring and redesignated T.1As, along with the TWU fleets. The pilots and aircraft would have been split among the TWU shadow squadrons and the red paint quickly covered with grey. Quite how the T.1A would have performed is anyone's guess but another subsonic jet equipped with AIM-9Ls acquitted itself quite well in the early 1980s as I recall.