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Red Arrows - toxic culture

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Red Arrows - toxic culture

Old 2nd Nov 2023, 20:24
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The fine in the newspaper shown...

How do they work out that £819 fine for smackng the woman on the "may not even be legal these days to say outloud" ????

what kind of deterrent would that be?
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 20:43
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Originally Posted by Mortmeister
It certainly did at Chivenor in the late 80’s/early 90’s when two TWU students set fire to one of their own in ‘Mess Games’ and they rightly did ‘time’ for it.
If I remember correctly the conviction was later quashed.
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 22:10
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Talking of aircraft, I believe the Canadians have some Tudors they could let you have.

About the OP. There was a program about fast jet training in the RCAF a while ago and the graduation was basically a drink up with beer being poured over the female pilot's head. We attended a couple of formal squadron dinners a little while later and I was surprised at the drinking culture that still existed. I get it that during WWll there was a "let off steam" culture in reaction to the daily stress but by the time my kids got their wings it seemed a little passe to me.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 06:15
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by stickstirrer
Get rid of the Red Suits and Blue overalls; wear standard RAF uniform.
But then they would be indistinguishable from ‘ordinary’ RAF personnel…? 👍
Might prick the bubble of separateness elitism and disregard of service norms, discipline and ethos.
Actually I agree with you, reading the reports, perhaps it is time to ditch the “Blues” and dress the whole team in identical Red Growbags to form a coherent team and kick the Upstairs downstairs culture into touch, after all the BBMF all dress in black growbags when doing the show rounds. By continuing to wear separate “colours” it is carrying over their “elitist” toxic environment.

Reading what you can, I cannot see how you can reform the Sqn without a fresh start manpower wise, by retaining members of the current staffing their is always the chance of slipping backwards into the old habits.

With the state of the RAF manning and aircraft wise, perhaps the Reds are a relic of a bygone age that should be allowed to disappear in its current format and be replaced with something more in keeping with the RAF of today.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 06:46
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Yes!

They can start the "pilotless" aircraft generation with the Red Arrows.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 09:52
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
With the state of the RAF manning and aircraft wise, perhaps the Reds are a relic of a bygone age that should be allowed to disappear in its current format and be replaced with something more in keeping with the RAF of today.
They missed the opportunity to quietly let them slip into history during the pandemic.
I find it increasingly hard to see how they, in their current form, can still be justified in the current size and make up of the RAF, which has now only had one RAF organised airshow per year at Cosford for the last decade, since the demise of the Waddington show. Back in the heyday of the Reds when part of CFS, 9 Gnats or Hawks were only about a tenth (give or take) of the advanced jet training fleet, and now 9 Hawks are not far off a tenth of the front line fast jet fleets in size!! and not far off 50% of the current advanced jet training fleet.....

Its now all about giving a false impression to the public of an RAF that hasn't really existed for 25 years......
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 10:00
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
.....With the state of the RAF manning and aircraft wise, perhaps the Reds are a relic of a bygone age that should be allowed to disappear in its current format and be replaced with something more in keeping with the RAF of today.
Agreed. We Brits tend to hang on to institutions well beyond their best by date. In my view RAFAT has already attained that dubious status, and the released talent, both aircrew and engineers, would serve the RAF more effectively in the front line squadrons where they would find more down to earth working conditions instead of the celebrity ridden hothouse they leave behind.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 10:02
  #48 (permalink)  
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Try selling that to the Daily Mail, The Excess and the Torygraph ...................

You're right of course - but it's not a logical world - we keep the Guards in red uniforms and bearskins - why? And the Household Cavalry...................
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 10:06
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I’ve never understood the reds as recruitment.

Years ago I remember when the RAF used to have a pair of jets do a “combat” display.

(it was completely made up though, but a spectacle)

one a Tornado iirc,

It was commentated, they’d run in fast together, “to find a ground target” split up, one fly loud “top cover”, one do a low run as a flash bang was set off on the ground. (It went on for a while longer than that)

As a kid it was far more exciting than the reds.
I’ve seen them a number of times, it’s all very skilful and all, but when I think of exciting flying, I think of single aero’s, half Cubans, tight loops, that display.

That makes kids dream and go “cor, I want to fly, I want to be a knight of the air”.

I’d disband the reds tomorrow, there are so many better displays I could make up off the top of my head with a pair of fast jets, or a few Spitfires, than 9 aircraft flying around in slow tight formations, or the faux jeopardy of the synchro pair.

The Typhoon display is what people talk about after an airshow, not the reds.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 10:15
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The Typhoon display is what people talk about after an airshow, not the reds.
Yes, 3 days at RIAT this year and a number of solo FJ were more exciting than the Reds.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 10:35
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But 99% of the population doesn't go to airshows - they see the Reds at big public occasions - it's nothing to with the military its more a patriotic, flag waving emotion. Most people can't tell the difference between a Typhoon and a Hawk either

Same in other countries - the Snow Birds aren't cutting edge technology but every Canadian likes to see them
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 12:23
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And of those that do attend airshows, see the exodus for the gates after the Reds have displayed, no matter what else is on the programme. With RAF engaging less and less from airshows there are far less chances for the public to be made aware that it still exists (and with most personnel wearing DPM clothing most people think that they are army).

Having said that, is an aerobatic team the most appropriate way to represent the RAF? Can it show what it exists for to the people who pay for it in a better way? Discuss.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 12:35
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For many years I have left airshows BEFORE the Reds display ... seen them often enough, and getting out of the car park before the rush is preferable. Sorry!

In answer to the question, yes, operational aircraft doing operational things [where possible] seems more relevant to me.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 12:45
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Now the Hawk T1 is obsolete elsewhere, it's hard to justify the Reds as representing British industry.
A flypast over the Mall ending with a Typhoon formation once a year will remind the public what the RAF is now.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 13:44
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Originally Posted by MPN11
For many years I have left airshows BEFORE the Reds display ... seen them often enough, and getting out of the car park before the rush is preferable. Sorry!

In answer to the question, yes, operational aircraft doing operational things [where possible] seems more relevant to me.
Absolutely! The value of the Reds for me is in keeping the masses inside the show until the very end, allowing me to beat the rush to the exit once they're done.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 14:40
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Originally Posted by mmitch
Now the Hawk T1 is obsolete elsewhere, it's hard to justify the Reds as representing British industry.
A flypast over the Mall ending with a Typhoon formation once a year will remind the public what the RAF is now.
mmitch.
Didn’t seem an issue for the very many years that the team flew the Gnat.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 14:53
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Having said that, is an aerobatic team the most appropriate way to represent the RAF?
We used to have an excellent way of representing the RAF (and the RN) in the military SAR Force but this was moved out of the military and into commercial aviation.

Most people recognised either the yellow RAF aircraft or the grey RN ones and knew that the crews were military and spent 98% of their time rescuing civilians from life and health threatening situations, some very high profile.

We were sacrificed on the altar of Defence spending cuts because we weren't a 'core-military capability' despite a constant presence in the Falklands and providing our paramedic winchmen to MERT crews in Afghanistan.

Now the commercial operator is running out of rearcrew because they can't poach them from the military, where they used to be excellently trained.

A short sighted vision of the RAF/RN future by ambitious senior officers - if they had defended the SAR Force even half as much as the Reds, military crews would still be training and delivering top drawer SAR.

Those military crews who moved to the contractor have ensured the high standards remained but it would have been so much better to have kept those skills and personnel in house.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 14:57
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Originally Posted by pr00ne
Didn’t seem an issue for the very many years that the team flew the Gnat.
They transitioned over the Hawk not long after it replaced the Gnat, most likely for that very reason.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 14:59
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
We used to have an excellent way of representing the RAF (and the RN) in the military SAR Force but this was moved out of the military and into commercial aviation.

Most people recognised either the yellow RAF aircraft or the grey RN ones and knew that the crews were military and spent 98% of their time rescuing civilians from life and health threatening situations, some very high profile.

We were sacrificed on the altar of Defence spending cuts because we weren't a 'core-military capability' despite a constant presence in the Falklands and providing our paramedic winchmen to MERT crews in Afghanistan.

Now the commercial operator is running out of rearcrew because they can't poach them from the military, where they used to be excellently trained.

A short sighted vision of the RAF/RN future by ambitious senior officers - if they had defended the SAR Force even half as much as the Reds, military crews would still be training and delivering top drawer SAR.

Those military crews who moved to the contractor have ensured the high standards remained but it would have been so much better to have kept those skills and personnel in house.
As a defence aerospace journalist, one of the questions that myself and others repeatedly asked when the decision to transition from military to civilian SAR was made was, 'Where will you get your crews from once the current crop of ex-military pilots and winchmen retire?'. Never got a satisfactory answer.
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Old 3rd Nov 2023, 15:04
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The one man that doesn’t seem to come up in all the chat is the Squadron Warrant Officer. On the four front line squadrons I served on he was the man who directed what could, and what could not be deemed acceptable from the groundcrew and at times the junior officers. He was answerable only to the squadron boss who quite frequently would have known him previously as he himself climbed the aircrew ladder.
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