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Red Arrows - toxic culture

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Red Arrows - toxic culture

Old 2nd Nov 2023, 09:44
  #21 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Fire and brimstone
I am trying to think how they could have possibly generated worse publicity for themselves, at a worse time?

it stinks of privilege and total arrogance.

They do a lot of good for GB Ltd, but this gives ammo to those who think they should form part of the next defence cuts.
When I worked in Air Plans it was a permanent measure, never taken.
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 10:31
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC

He admitted that “a handful” of those who had served in the Red Arrows during the period from 2017 to 2021 when sexual harassment was normalised remained on the team but he denied the inquiry amounted to a cover-up.
Know someone involved with airshows, he said both times he had anything to do with the red arrows they were like frat boys on their first trip to vegas. He never saw them break the bottle to throttle rule, but no doubt the pilots and a ground crew were operating hung over. On the other hand he cant say anything bad about the thunder birds. Said they squeaky clean and incredibly professional. Only issue was finding a kilroy was here in the wheel well of one of their planes after they left (that was 2018 he thinks)
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 11:12
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I'd imagine its a pretty good time and opportunity to be on the Reds (and Blues) because the only way is UP - both in morale and outward perception of performance.
If the new Red One, the Team and their Execs can navigate a couple of seasons without shooting themselves in the foot again, then this dark period will pass. This is quite a challenge however. That said, the guys and girls who get to the Reds are right sort of people with the right mindset to meet that challenge - both in terms of ability and determination.
OTOH, at present. they must feel pretty awful and 'un-special' to be associated with the inappropriate and embarrassing 'peccadilloes' of previous years. The danger is that this causes serious flight-safety DISTRACTIONS (remember that video!) or, by trying to cut corners to get back to the top of the tree, they take small but extra risks that could/will bite them on the bum. They should keep it simple and just fly well....as far as I could see, all the 'private life and interpersonal' stuff didn't impinge on the quality and safety of the actual displays - but I only saw a couple.
Good luck and stay focused, I say.

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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 11:19
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I am glad my father, RAF 1936-1962 and proud of it, did not live to see this.
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 13:03
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Originally Posted by Geriaviator


I am glad my father, RAF 1936-1962 and proud of it, did not live to see this.
Amen to that. Dust in the eyes suddenly.
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 13:21
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Not sure that Grylls in that Times piece got the reason for Murphy's hasty departure quite right.
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 13:35
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I don't in any way wish to be seen as condoning this behaviour but I think for a lot of people there should be an element of 'there but for the grace of god'. How many of us have in our younger days had too much to drink and behaved in ways that may well be considered inappropriate (naked bar in Fg Trg anyone?). If we ban the Reds for this we should probably also ban most rugby clubs, work Christmas parties, university clubs, Sqns away on dets? etc. I do think we have work to do on changing our culture, particularly the 90/00s 'lads drinking culture', and sexual assault is never 'excusable' but I just get a little bit uncomfortable with the holier than though, 'hang the guilty b**tards attitude from some.
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 13:48
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Originally Posted by skua
Not sure that Grylls in that Times piece got the reason for Murphy's hasty departure quite right.
Agreed, it may well be among all those redactions so typical of such reports. May I quote the last par of Grylls's The Times piece:
Victims said they were left "furious" by the RAF's heavily redacted report and one said it was "utter nonsense" they had not been offered a meeting with Knighton. "I haven't heard anything from them. I haven't been offered a face to face. I lost my career because of this", said one.
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 14:29
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How many of us have in our younger days had too much to drink and behaved in ways that may well be considered inappropriate (naked bar in Fg Trg anyone?)
I've never heard of any flying training students behaving in such a clearly unacceptable way. Did it really go on? Surely not in the Officers' Mess?
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 14:46
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How many of us have in our younger days had too much to drink and behaved in ways that may well be considered inappropriate (naked bar in Fg Trg anyone?).
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Perhaps that's why we weren't chosen to represent the best of the RAF.

If we ban the Reds for this we should probably also ban most rugby clubs, work Christmas parties, university clubs, Sqns away on dets? etc.
We don't usually use those activities to showcase the RAF.

​​​​​​​The Red Arrows are supposed to exemplify the best that we can offer, not the average. So it is right and fitting that they should be held to the highest standards. It is perhaps unfortunate that the selection by the team of the team has led, at times, to a normalisation of the deviation away from some of those high standards. A smaller pool of potential team members than of previous years limits who can be chosen, hopefully without lowering some of the personal standards in order to fill seats.
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 15:15
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Originally Posted by BEagle
I've never heard of any flying training students behaving in such a clearly unacceptable way. Did it really go on? Surely not in the Officers' Mess?
Shurely knot. The verey idee.
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 16:19
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This new start should perhaps start with a new aircraft
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 16:33
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Originally Posted by sealo0
This new start should perhaps start with a new aircraft
The Red Tin Cans? Whence cometh these new aircraft?
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 17:05
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Originally Posted by sealo0
This new start should perhaps start with a new aircraft
And throw good money after bad? I think not.
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 17:11
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The Team's Hawk T1s are planned to remain in service for some years yet. The Hawk T2 is apparently unsuitable and any other replacement aeroplane would have to be British due to the RAFAT mission.

So the Aeralis AJT will probably be the Team's new aircraft within a decade.
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 17:12
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BBMF Rules OK

Originally Posted by MPN11
The Red Tin Cans? Whence cometh these new aircraft?
Just checking my tongues not stuck in my cheek but how about:
  • Scrap the Reds
  • Hunt down a spare Spitfire or two, sufficient of those flying now to bolster BBMF
  • Team of 6 adequate to provide meaningful display
  • Only joking....err that's not such a bad idea
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 17:59
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Quote:
How many of us have in our younger days had too much to drink and behaved in ways that may well be considered inappropriate (naked bar in Fg Trg anyone?)
Good God man, I do hope one kept ones tie and socks on to show some sense of decorum.


..

Last edited by NutLoose; 2nd Nov 2023 at 18:16.
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 18:06
  #38 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by SOX80
I don't in any way wish to be seen as condoning this behaviour but I think for a lot of people there should be an element of 'there but for the grace of god'. How many of us have in our younger days had too much to drink and behaved in ways that may well be considered inappropriate (naked bar in Fg Trg anyone?). If we ban the Reds for this we should probably also ban most rugby clubs, work Christmas parties, university clubs, Sqns away on dets? etc. I do think we have work to do on changing our culture, particularly the 90/00s 'lads drinking culture', and sexual assault is never 'excusable' but I just get a little bit uncomfortable with the holier than though, 'hang the guilty b**tards attitude from some.
It was always unacceptable behavior. Military personnel getting away with Luddite and misogynistic behavior never made it 'appropriate'. Daily life supporting (what used to be) a premier military team should never have been like a rugby club, a Christmas party or being student. It should have been an honour and a privilege to be an Ambassador for a highly professional and cohesive military unit, instead, those responsible for the atrocious conduct and those who ignored it have squandered the reputation of the service.
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 18:19
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When detached to Gibraltar many many moons ago, we had a pair flash some cleaner in the NAAFI, her husband as it turns out was an RAF Police Sgt, they were rightly returned to Germany on the Jet we had just got off and charged... strangely they were both fined, but different amounts and it left us wondering if size did indeed matter.
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 20:04
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Originally Posted by BEagle
I've never heard of any flying training students behaving in such a clearly unacceptable way. Did it really go on? Surely not in the Officers' Mess?
It certainly did at Chivenor in the late 80’s/early 90’s when two TWU students set fire to one of their own in ‘Mess Games’ and they rightly did ‘time’ for it.
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