Wikiposts
Search
Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Gaza Air War

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 17th Oct 2023, 07:36
  #121 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: East Sussex
Posts: 1,075
Received 17 Likes on 7 Posts
Originally Posted by [email protected]

Bombing civilians is barbarous and illegal and perhaps the US have put enough pressure on Israel to realise that.
Only if targeted without observing the core legal tenets of Military Necessity, Distinction, Humanity and Proportionality.

Anything else is collateral damage and quite legal.
Training Risky is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 17th Oct 2023, 09:17
  #122 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Beyond the M25
Posts: 523
Received 49 Likes on 25 Posts
Originally Posted by [email protected]
It would seem this will turn out to be an underground war rather than a continued air war - the IDF are going into the 300km maze of Hamas tunnels.

Bombing civilians is barbarous and illegal and perhaps the US have put enough pressure on Israel to realise that.
Deliberately targeting civilians (which the Israelis are not, but which the Russians are to answer earlier comments on the subject) is barbarous and illegal, bombing civilian areas (which the RAF and others did in Raqa quite recently) is sadly sometimes necessary.

Nuance matters.
Mil-26Man is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 17th Oct 2023, 09:24
  #123 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 10,332
Received 623 Likes on 271 Posts
<span style="color:#000000;">Nuance matters.</span>
not to the civilians on the receiving end. How does careful targeting involve levelling entire apartment blocks?<br /><br />The Russians used this crap excuse but I hoped the Israelis were better people than that being children of God and all.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2023, 09:26
  #124 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Beyond the M25
Posts: 523
Received 49 Likes on 25 Posts
Originally Posted by [email protected]
not to the civilians on the receiving end. How does careful targeting involve levelling entire apartment blocks?<br /><br />The Russians used this crap excuse but I hoped the Israelis were better people than that being children of God and all.
Don't recall you questioning the RAF bombing of Raqqa. If you did, my apologies.
Mil-26Man is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2023, 09:29
  #125 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Near the coast
Posts: 2,371
Received 553 Likes on 151 Posts
A close up view

Apologies once again for the Instagram link but it’s where I’ve been seeing a good selection of videos. This one gives some interesting views of what it’s like to be on the receiving end.

BV

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyeoP...RlODBiNWFlZA==
Bob Viking is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2023, 09:50
  #126 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 17,440
Received 1,601 Likes on 734 Posts
House Foreign Affairs Committee drafting legislation authorizing military force if Israel-Hamas conflict expands

From CNN's Sam Fossum

House Foreign Affairs Committee Chair Michael McCaul told CNN Monday that his committee is drafting legislation “in the event it’s necessary” to authorize US military force if the current conflict between Israel and Hamas broadens into a wider proxy war with Iran…

The revelation that his committee is crafting draft legislation — known as an Authorization of Use for Military Force — comes as President Joe Biden prepares to travel to the region later this week and is the latest indication that the US government is deeply concerned over how the current crisis could broaden in a way that might require a US military response.

The US military ordered a second carrier strike group to the Eastern Mediterranean as well as Air Force fighter jets to the region as part of US efforts to deter Iran and its proxies from expanding the conflict.

McCaul was careful not to say whether the White House had specifically asked for such an authorization, telling reporters: "I don't want to confirm that. It's just that there is concern that — we, I'm currently, we're currently drafting one in the event it's necessary."

When asked by CNN what this potential authorization might entail, McCaul said: “I'd prefer not to put Iran as a nation state in there. It would be more Iran proxies, you know, like Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran-backed Shi’ia militias, but if Iran gets directly involved, then we would have to put them on the list."….
ORAC is online now  
Old 17th Oct 2023, 09:54
  #127 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: n/a
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes on 3 Posts
The President of Israel complains that the IDF are operating within the basic 'guidelines' of International Law. Note: He said guidelines, not rules. The rules of International Humanitarian Law are quite clear. Unfortunately, Israel chose not to be a signatory to those basic rules which were put in place to protect civilians from harm. Principles of Proportionality (1977).

sfm818 is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2023, 10:10
  #128 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Beyond the M25
Posts: 523
Received 49 Likes on 25 Posts
Originally Posted by sfm818
The President of Israel complains that the IDF are operating within the basic 'guidelines' of International Law. Note: He said guidelines, not rules. The rules of International Humanitarian Law are quite clear. Unfortunately, Israel chose not to be a signatory to those basic rules which were put in place to protect civilians from harm. Principles of Proportionality (1977).
You might also want to note that the UK, France, and the United States (among many others) are not signatories to the 1977 Protocols that include the Principles of Proportionality.

Mil-26Man is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2023, 10:31
  #129 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: n/a
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes on 3 Posts
Choosing not to add signature to Treaty does not release countries which have advanced military capabilities from their obligation to observe basic principles of proportionality. Specifically, articles 51, 57, of IHL were written for the exact scenario we are now witnessing. Irrespective of which States avoided signing up to those protocols, they should be applied as a minimum standard in this particular case
sfm818 is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2023, 10:35
  #130 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Beyond the M25
Posts: 523
Received 49 Likes on 25 Posts
At the risk of being carted off to JB, Israel doesn't target civilians anymore than we and the US targeted civilians in Raqqa, Fallujah, Ramallah, etc, etc...
Mil-26Man is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2023, 11:31
  #131 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 10,332
Received 623 Likes on 271 Posts
Originally Posted by Mil-26Man
At the risk of being carted off to JB, Israel doesn't target civilians anymore than we and the US targeted civilians in Raqqa, Fallujah, Ramallah, etc, etc...
Was that right what we did?
Did we bomb the most densely populated region in the world?
It is an indefensible action no matter how much you dance on the head of the pin.

crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2023, 11:32
  #132 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Beyond the M25
Posts: 523
Received 49 Likes on 25 Posts
You tell me if it was right crab - did you object at the time?
Mil-26Man is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2023, 11:37
  #133 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 10,332
Received 623 Likes on 271 Posts
Deflection mil 26man - is it right to bomb a densely populated area full of non- combatants or not? Easy question.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2023, 11:40
  #134 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Beyond the M25
Posts: 523
Received 49 Likes on 25 Posts
Not deflection - either you object to all bombing of civilian areas or you don't. You can't just pick and choose when the Israelis do it.

is it right to bomb a densely populated area full of non- combatants or not? Easy question.
That's precisely the question YOU need to answer. I don't believe it is wrong, if safeguards are taken to minimise civilians casualties. I believe the Israeli military is doing what it can to not kill civilians, but I suspect we're in JB territory now.
Mil-26Man is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2023, 11:46
  #135 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 10,332
Received 623 Likes on 271 Posts
I can answer the question - it is always wrong to bomb civilians. Don’t hide behind what we or others did in the past.

Mitigations are impossible in such densely populated areas - just mealy mouthed words from politicians.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 17th Oct 2023, 11:52
  #136 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Beyond the M25
Posts: 523
Received 49 Likes on 25 Posts
Originally Posted by [email protected]
I can answer the question - it is always wrong to bomb civilians. Don’t hide behind what we or others did in the past.

Mitigations are impossible in such densely populated areas - just mealy mouthed words from politicians.
Wars aren't always fought on open plains, crab. Being an ex-military man, I'd have expected you to not be quite so naive.

Mil-26Man is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2023, 12:23
  #137 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 10,332
Received 623 Likes on 271 Posts
Not naive - just a human being who values other human beings lives.

If you are in uniform, you know the risks and are prepared to put yourself, or be put, in harms way - what choice did the civilians on either side of this carnage have?

Hamas committed an atrocity killing the Israeli and other civilians - Israel have doubled the death rate on the Palestinian side with their bombing - tell me how any of that is justified.

Some people just love to have an excuse for killing other people - it's a bloody sad world.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
The following 2 users liked this post by [email protected]:
Old 17th Oct 2023, 12:32
  #138 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Beyond the M25
Posts: 523
Received 49 Likes on 25 Posts
As you say, Hamas "committed an atrocity killing the Israeli and other civilians". If Israel is to deal with the threat from Hamas it has to go where Hamas is (in the built-up area of Gaza) not to where it would like it to be (out in the open desert, perhaps, from where it could carpet bomb them from the air [keeping it on topic for the mods] with no danger to civilian life). It's the unfortunate reality, and one that Hamas banked on when it started this particular cycle.
Mil-26Man is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 17th Oct 2023, 12:45
  #139 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: East Sussex
Posts: 1,075
Received 17 Likes on 7 Posts
Originally Posted by [email protected]
I can answer the question - it is always wrong to bomb civilians. Don’t hide behind what we or others did in the past.

Mitigations are impossible in such densely populated areas - just mealy mouthed words from politicians.
That is all plainly wrong. As you supposedly should well know. Lots of western kinetic planning (and actual IDF operations) revolves around a certain level of acceptable collateral damage. There is a number for each target which when presented to a politician will be either approved as proportional, or rejected as too high for the gain.

If Israel is engaged in a fight for its survival then that CIVCAS number is now at a very high level for the targets in Gaza.

Last edited by Training Risky; 18th Oct 2023 at 10:37.
Training Risky is offline  
The following 3 users liked this post by Training Risky:
Old 17th Oct 2023, 13:12
  #140 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Den Haag
Age: 57
Posts: 6,264
Received 336 Likes on 188 Posts
Originally Posted by Bob Viking
Apologies once again for the Instagram link but it’s where I’ve been seeing a good selection of videos. This one gives some interesting views of what it’s like to be on the receiving end.

BV

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyeoP...RlODBiNWFlZA==
It's amazing how deserted the streets are!
212man is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.