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Mental Health - We Need to Talk

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Mental Health - We Need to Talk

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Old 2nd Sep 2023, 07:57
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Mental Health - We Need to Talk

For me, yesterday's events that unfolded in the late afternoon brought into stark focus a couple of things that need to be aired. Firstly the culture that would have someone take their own life rather than be removed from the things they love doing or to let people down being a motivator to end it all needs to be examined and challenged. Secondly, and reassuringly the caring network that sprung into action to find the individual concerned was heartwarming and spoke of the good in our extended family.
These two seemingly diametrically opposed realities need to be resolved or at least talked about. I for one have been and continue to be in the ‘planning’ stages of such a way out - I firmly believe I won’t act on it but the worry is one day I may just step over that line. I know that if I do chaos and hurt beyond my imagining will ensue. One of the things that prevents me from acting on these feelings is the fact that now I have aired my hurt and fear to members of my family and my extended family in the Services is that the support I have received is universal and without judgement.
Please keep a look out for your mates and family members who may be struggling and talk to them, ask the question but with compassion and remember even those who seem to have it all harbour the same doubts and fears we all have.
Finally I think we need to talk about the culture that drives people to suicide rather than to ‘let people down’; challenge it, to be compassionate does not mean you are weak and above all else be kind and compassionate to yourself - you wouldn’t treat a mate like that, would you?
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Old 2nd Sep 2023, 08:23
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I have nothing worthwhile to say about this other than I hope you don't "step over that line" mate. Always good to talk about stuff.
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Old 2nd Sep 2023, 09:33
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Firstly the culture that would have someone take their own life rather than be removed from the things they love doing or to let people down being a motivator to end it all needs to be examined and challenged.
I think we should be wary of rushing to self-criticism here, especially if the culture being imputed is that of the RAF rather than society at large. For every case that erupts into wide-scale awareness there are many more being sensitively, appropriately and discreetly managed. The days of automatic grounding and/or withdrawal of security clearance are long gone. I know of more than one who has carried on flying with a full clearance after declaring MH issues, and others who have returned after a recovery period - but there are no easy universal answers in either field and a blanket policy of turning a blind eye would be just as inappropriate as its opposite. It is good to see that the OP feels able to talk - that means we are doing something right and I hope it helps.

As regards suicide to avoid letting people down, I think this is a wider societal issue and one which afflicts primarily high-achieving men, who it seems to me are more prone to defining themselves by their achievements and progression. And it is an internal perception - from everyone else's perspective, suicide and retirement have identical effects in career terms. People lower down the achievement scale seem to me far less susceptible, being more prepared to subordinate their careers to other priorities. If there is anything organisations can do to help, it is providing alternative career pathways for those who might privately be looking for a way off the ladder. There is some good work going on at lower levels on this, but the "up or out" nature of very senior military careers is undeniably brutal. Very sad to see and I hope the air marshal gets the support and care that he needs.
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Old 2nd Sep 2023, 10:22
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Unfortunately, no matter how much we talk about "it's ok to not be ok" "it's good to talk" etc, things will never change. People who have seen and done awful things, or are just a bit off balanced, will always do this sort of thing. The sad thing about this particular instance is I had quite a few friends and numerous colleagues from the RAF Regiment who have taken their own lives post HERRICK, but it takes a VSO to threaten it for the RAF to be suddenly concerned and making Facebook posts about his status.
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Old 2nd Sep 2023, 11:18
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This a a strange one, my neighbour who is deaf tried to take his life a week or so ago, I didn’t know he was having problems and I only found out when I enquired next door at the local shop why his door had been boarded up. He is a nice guy, getting on and always said hello and when passing I would always pop his bin back in if it was left out.

Apparently he had tried once before and called his sister who called an ambulance, this time he never called anyone and the visiting nurse could not gain access so called the police and ambulance, he survived and is in hospital.

From what I have learnt, his sight has failed him as well as more or less losing his voice, so he is living on his own deaf, blind and more or less dumb, hasn’t been out for months and only sees the nurse daily and the odd visit from his sister.

The poor guy needs to be in a place of care where he will be looked after and have some company, no wonder he attempted to end it all, and I feel bad that I was unaware of his predicament as I would have made an effort to see him after work etc.
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Old 2nd Sep 2023, 11:48
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Anything that shines a light on this problem is welcome, it may save someone else’s life; let’s use the exposure afforded us by this situation to be there for those in need.
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Old 2nd Sep 2023, 13:27
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Easy Street, the fact that I feel able to engage about this subject is because the support of friends, family and help from a charity - the way I was treated by the RAF system once I put my head above the parapet was diabolical and the RAF and Services as a whole are still not getting it right. We really need to do better for all of our people. For all of the situations that are handled sensitively and discretely I am aware of a raft of those mis-handled in an unsympathetic (some may even say cruel) manner.
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Old 3rd Sep 2023, 08:17
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My own feelings on wider matter of mental health is that we fail to get it right both inside and outside of the military. Why is that? There are many professionals that care and want to do the right thing, their very best, and there are many of us that want to help and support too. But maybe that is the problem, that there is no fix - like alcohol and drug addiction, there is no cure, you just try to manage it as you go through life amongst people also living with it? Maybe we all live with it, but we all have different thresholds? Or maybe, some are “wired” slightly differently? What is for sure, it is amongst us and is a silent killer for some that suffer from it.

What I fear is that out of Friday’s sad affair we will be subjected to yet another patronising DLE video or workshop. Again, my own opinion on this is that because mental health is a very bespoke and personal thing, for many these ‘magic bullet’ courses are actually more damaging than they are good. It was the same for the so-called “decompression” stipulated for those returning from TELIC and HERRICK - quite frankly the last thing I needed was a couple more days, sat in Tommy Tucker’s with the same folks I’d been with for the past 3, 4 or 6 months! I doubt I am alone with those sentiments.

I personally believe that the sooner we are truthful about this, the better. We just aren’t going to fix this, we are only going to manage it. Every one’s experience and medical needs are going to differ (which is why I believe you hear good and bad things about the Services’ support and management of cases). Last Friday showed how things like social media “beacon alerts” can really help in saving lives, but now the tricky bit begins for everyone - the rebuilding of an individual to enable them to learn to manage what they have, have always had, and will continue to have.

I say all of this as someone who has helped save someone very close to them from taking that final step. Someone who kept it hidden from me daily for around 20 years. I know they will never be cured and I help them manage the ‘black dog’ of depression on a fairly regular basis along with the medical support they receive. I know I can only help and that one day it may turn out very differently - all I can do is help them manage their health so they don’t reach that point again. I don’t even pretend to understand what they go through, as I can’t, and I find it totally alien to me (and I have experienced bad things like close friend/family deaths, divorce, one of my children developing a chronic condition, children leaving home, seeing/doing bad things on ops and having things taken away from me - all the worst things in life). But I know that by being there, and helping through what they continue to go through, it is helping them manage their daily torment that appears totally different to anything I experience.

I also know of 3 Aircrew mates in the Service for which we were too late. No amount of courses or awareness would have saved them. They wrote no letters/notes like we saw on Friday and behaved entirely normally before they saw themselves off. All at different points in their life with different circumstances. We will never know fully why as they took those reasons with them. We will just have to accept, like we do with aviation accidents, that this will happen and all we can do is try to manage the risk of occurrence to as low as reasonably practicable for those we do know about.

Sadly, one thing that does have to happen is that until that person is well enough in their mind, then in aviation, we have to stop them doing the thing that they love doing. When I went through divorce, I sat down with my flight commander and stated that I needed a week or so break from flying - not because I was going to punch myself out into the HAS roof and kill myself, but because my mind was not on the job. But for those with suicidal thoughts, then it has to happen - events like the tragic GermanWings incident show what can happen. There is no ideal way around that, even flying solo, the risks are too great. The same happens with driving too, and only after that individual is fit enough in their mind will their care team advise that they can go back to it. When it comes to security clearances, perversely it is easier to manage once the person has admitted to their mental health deterioration, rather than before when they are highly susceptible to manipulation. But, as mental health cannot be cured as such, and only managed, then the risks of those holding higher clearances are often deemed too great to manage.

Sorry that is all very bleak, but I have seen this from another side (and I know there are many lenses to view this through). All we appear to have in our toolkit from how I see it is:

1. Looking out for each other and encouraging people who want to talk about it.
2. Using social media “beacon alerts” to find folks when things go bad.
3. Getting professional help when it happens - even if it creates more upset initially.
4. Being prepared to help manage it for the rest of their lives.
5. But recognising that you also have a life to live and that “one size does not fit all” in these matters.

Now, it’s a beautiful Sunday in the UK, let’s go enjoy it!
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Old 3rd Sep 2023, 10:38
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I think its really important if you think a colleague or friend is having problems to bring it up with them and try and get them to talk about it. All too often people say" if only we'd been able to talk to him/her...."
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Old 3rd Sep 2023, 11:44
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Well said LJ. What I have trouble understanding is why there is such an epidemic of mental health problems recently. Has it always been there but hidden or is there something about modern society that causes these issues?
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Old 3rd Sep 2023, 13:03
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That’s enough sunshine for now…

Timelord - the stats here will help you with your question: https://researchbriefings.files.parl...9/CBP-7749.pdf

In particular, these 2 graphs:


From the top graph, it would seem that over the past 40 years the numbers have been stable - however the population has grown. So it’s the bottom graph that we need to consider. As a rate of suicide per 100,000 of UK population then we are getting better. But, there is a real issue here that needs to be put out there. Many of the females of our species suffer terribly from Menopause, and it is often quoted that the males are “lucky” not to suffer. However, there is such a thing as Andropause and often that starts to link to suicide for males. Much work is being done on understanding Andropause, but the suicide statistics are telling from the graph below. Males are 3 times more likely to commit suicide than females. Further, 40 years ago it was 2 times, and then females have reduced their rate by 50% but males by just 17%. Why is that? There is a school of thought that males are struggling to adapt to the world where their role models are being forcibly changed and many are struggling to cope with it. Further, the requirement to talk openly about mental health to get the help you need these days may also be against the way that males are ‘wired up’. So, in effect, by telling males to be open and “talk about it” or “it’s ok to not be ok”, it may be having a detrimental effect. Females now outnumber males in medical school. In the 1960s females in medical school numbered 30%, by 1980 it was 40% and now there are 43,000 female GPs compared to 35,000 male GPs. Now, if males didn’t like discussing about being “not ok”, they like it even less (rightly or wrongly) to do that in front of a GP of the opposite sex. So, the male may suffer in silence feeling unable to speak to their GP because of gender preference - as I say, rightly or wrongly. I know my wife and many female colleagues feel uneasy about going to male GPs on some matters, so this gender preference most definitely exists.



So, it goes back to my point earlier. There is no easy fix around all of this and we all need to manage it in our own way using the tools provided. It’s a wicked problem with a complex solution that will not fix it for good.
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Old 3rd Sep 2023, 13:31
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Has it always been there but hidden or is there something about modern society that causes these issues?

Always been there, but hidden by the social norm in the West of 'stiff upper lip" admiration being imbibed from early nurture. It makes both the ability to discuss personal problems and react to them with empathy and understanding difficult, if not impossible. More recent attitudes have 'given permission' for some of those affected to speak out, but it requires little searching to find the embedded "Man up!" as a stock response.
Those of US who live with the visits of the 'black dog' are (if they are lucky) aware of its insidious effects and unheralded arrival. Again, if lucky, the recognition of presence triggers a practised response which can be excessively anti-social but non-lethal. Recognition , and being fortunate enough to have personal support and previous effective, understanding counselling, is the key, but the needed information is not readily available.
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Old 3rd Sep 2023, 16:54
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To add to the posts on here, a personal perspective.

I've had several periods of depression throughout my life and I'm all too familiar with the symptoms, and, debilitating effects.

The "stiff upper lip " has been mentioned, as has cultures, but, let me add one more.

The "stigma " attached, wrongly, to mental health problems.

Having the moral resolve to admit to yourself, and ask for, professional help, is a key element in being subsequently able to talk to a mental health professional. Once you admit, publicly, to having depression, and, as an aside, depression does not discriminate....anybody and everybody can suffer the condition, ...thereafter, it takes very little for the epithets "nutter " " headcase" etc to start emerging, sometimes directly, sometimes insidiously, but, emerge they do. Such comments only compound the effects of the condition for obvious reasons.

You also end up developing two personalities, a public one, trying not to show you are suffering, and, a private one which you try to keep hidden, but which is with you 24 /7 and it's the latter which can do the most damage if you feel you are alone. You also have to try and establish the causal factors, and here you do need to talk because they may well be not what you assume.

A brief, very brief, resume therefore. The first bout was in the RAF and it took a perceptive C/T and subsequently Med Wing Commander to help me. What I will say is, the RAF "management " started the problem which then developed. It was resolved, in part, thanks entirely to the diagnosis of the Doctor in about two weeks albeit by then the damage had been done.

The second was the culture at an airline....and it took a very, very capable mental health nurse to, unsparingly, "dissect " me to get to the root of the problem.

The third, I can't go into, but, again, it was culture related, and the RAF / CS showed the exact opposite of the promoted "support " purely to preserve an image. I wish I could go into details because it would do more than raise eyebrows.

The fourth was the passing of my partner and my subsequent almost following in her footsteps with locations and timings when it came to my kidney stones .

There was a lighter side with the first time. Arrived at Wegberg, on a Sunday, naturally, and reception asked how I'd got there..usual litany of the obvious methods...hence, "in a motor glider " wasn't expected....one of those "priceless expression" moments, as it was true. Got flown in in the clubs Motor Falke by the CFI...alas, it got worse, when the club decided to visit on the Mon / Tues and caused "some consternation" shall we say. Seemingly, the complaints to the Wing Commander were dismissed as his daughter flew with us and "I know exactly what they're like ! " was his response.

As for the current rise in suicides, I would venture to suggest marketing has played a part in that materialism and an "ideal lifestyle " are heavily promoted as signs of "success". Unfortunately, the "ideal lifestyle " is a figment of the marketing mind.

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Old 3rd Sep 2023, 19:51
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Whilst we are at it, I mentioned the Andropause. Thought to start in some at ages as low as 35:


Knowing the age demographic on this forum, I suspect that quite a few of us recognise these! It took me a while to work out what was going on with me after my 40s, and then I read up about it. It’s the loss of testosterone that triggers most of it and it’s what some call a “Mid Life Crisis”, somewhat unkindly, as it happens to us all to some degree. Whilst the Menopause for females is front and centre right now in being understood in the workplace (a good job too, as Mrs LJ will tell you, it’s proper rubbish!), but no one talks about Andropause. Which is odd, because I’m fairly sure it’s why we see that surge in suicide rates in males after age 35. It would be good if it was brought into AvMed lectures too, so that you can watch out for that “cranky” Pilot, WSO or WSOp - who may just need a little help, rather than being called out as “cranky”!
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Old 4th Sep 2023, 12:44
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In answer to the question "Why now?", I think COVID must take some of the blame (and the Government's axing of socialising). It was a disruption to lifestyles the like of which we have never encountered, and I assume (as I am complete layman) that anyone with a tinge of mental health problems beforehand would have been particularly exercised by it.
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Old 4th Sep 2023, 17:33
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Originally Posted by skua
In answer to the question "Why now?", I think COVID must take some of the blame (and the Government's axing of socialising). It was a disruption to lifestyles the like of which we have never encountered, and I assume (as I am complete layman) that anyone with a tinge of mental health problems beforehand would have been particularly exercised by it.
No evidence to suggest that’s the case https://www.samaritans.org/about-sam...-suicide-risk/
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Old 4th Sep 2023, 18:15
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Interesting, but it is only provisional data, and only for 2020. What will 2021 bring?
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Old 5th Sep 2023, 10:58
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Discussing data, re suicide rates is, may I suggest, both pointless and too late ! The need is for early recognition and remediation and that has (certainly throughout my near 90 years) proved difficult, if not impossible. The greater acceptance of the existence of the problem is helpful, but, in most cases, it requires individual action by the sufferer to initiate action, something which the nature of the affliction makes less likely !
No easy answers, I'm afraid !
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Old 5th Sep 2023, 12:57
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There is no easy solution, there rarely is. Unfortunately there is much about the military (and modern life) which is inherently bad for your mental health: career uncertainty, moving, alcohol, shift patterns, stressful work, war! But how useful is a yearly DLE course or a casual chat from the Padre every now and again. The best we can do is educate people as to what mental illness is and looks like. The old platitudes of 'its good to talk' and 'look out for your mates' are all well and good but you do need to know what to look for and what to talk about. As with physical health, prevention is better than cure so encouraging good mental health when you are well is equally important. And emphasising that mental illness is treatable! You may stop flying (and may return to flying) or have to pause/alter your career trajectory but that is better than suffering on your own.
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Old 6th Sep 2023, 03:19
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it requires individual action by the sufferer to initiate action
Unfortunately that is not a guaranteed panacea either. One Friday had a major airbourne emergency where I wasn't assured of the outcome, attended a BBQ that night and the first and only beer didn't sit well. the following eighteen months were a downward spiral and visiting the doc in the interim complaining of assorted maladies achieved nothing, at the end of the eighteen months I could see why folk contemplate and take the step to suicide, not that I was so inclined. Told the good Lady to get me to hospital where they bombed me out and kept me in for three nights on suicide watch. Came good after four/five months and returned to flying.

When it was all over good Lady said that she knew something was up the weekend following the event as I kept taking showers. The thing that I couldn't get over was that how the emergency did me in whereas all the Vietnam action being shot up etc was just regarded as a day at the office, albeit exciting. Psychologist explained that each occasion you have a stressor it's like a thimble full of water in a glass, enough thimbles and the glass overflows. Found the civil psychologists at hand as helpful as a pocket in a singlet, the helpful chap was one specialising in ex military folk.
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