Eject! Eject! - John Nichol
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JN, I've read differing accounts of the loss of Nigel Elsdon and Max Collier in ZA392. Some accounts say that they were hit by a SAM after their successful attack, others that it was CFIT. Was the true cause ever established?
13 years earlier Max had been the Nav Plotter on our 35 Sqn Vulcan crew. I spoke once to him over the 'Jellyphone' from KKIA and exchanged rude gestures (as you do) during one of the work-up sortied pre-war.
RIP
13 years earlier Max had been the Nav Plotter on our 35 Sqn Vulcan crew. I spoke once to him over the 'Jellyphone' from KKIA and exchanged rude gestures (as you do) during one of the work-up sortied pre-war.
RIP
JN, I've read differing accounts of the loss of Nigel Elsdon and Max Collier in ZA392. Some accounts say that they were hit by a SAM after their successful attack, others that it was CFIT. Was the true cause ever established?
13 years earlier Max had been the Nav Plotter on our 35 Sqn Vulcan crew. I spoke once to him over the 'Jellyphone' from KKIA and exchanged rude gestures (as you do) during one of the work-up sortied pre-war.
RIP
13 years earlier Max had been the Nav Plotter on our 35 Sqn Vulcan crew. I spoke once to him over the 'Jellyphone' from KKIA and exchanged rude gestures (as you do) during one of the work-up sortied pre-war.
RIP
Put simply, no one knows for sure what happened to Nigel & Max - it could have been CFIT or being hit by flak or a missile. It was a very sad and tense few days for the Tornado force!
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Hmmm. I really don't think these 2 tragic incidents can be described as 'similar' other than an element of human failing being involved. Which is true for many, many incidents.
I fully describe Budgie's in TORNADO - his Hawk out of control because of a servicing error involving aircraft controls. And a subsequent ejection out of parameters.
I also cover Sean's incident in EJECT - a sequence of largely unlinked occurrences, including the ejection seat servicing error, which resulted in a truly awful accident witnessed by one of my friends.
With access to both Boards of Inquiry, I am WELL aware of the vagaries of both incidents, and especially the controversy surrounding Sean's accident (I had met him with my family a few months earlier during a visit to the Reds. We also met Jon Egging that day - another sad loss for the RAF and especially of course, his loved ones).
I know this is an ongoing discussion on other forums, but other than the human failing aspect, would suggest there is no common theme other than the tragic death of 2 fine pilots.
I fully describe Budgie's in TORNADO - his Hawk out of control because of a servicing error involving aircraft controls. And a subsequent ejection out of parameters.
I also cover Sean's incident in EJECT - a sequence of largely unlinked occurrences, including the ejection seat servicing error, which resulted in a truly awful accident witnessed by one of my friends.
With access to both Boards of Inquiry, I am WELL aware of the vagaries of both incidents, and especially the controversy surrounding Sean's accident (I had met him with my family a few months earlier during a visit to the Reds. We also met Jon Egging that day - another sad loss for the RAF and especially of course, his loved ones).
I know this is an ongoing discussion on other forums, but other than the human failing aspect, would suggest there is no common theme other than the tragic death of 2 fine pilots.
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Another vote for the Little Ripon Book Shop. Gill and Simon run an amazing book shop, got my (signed) copy of Tornado from there, and will do the same with this one. They also do so much for the local community, in particular the schools, and I would much rather pay the RRP than go to Amazon.
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Indeed, Budgies death was nothing to do with the seat, but everything to do with norms in the unit riggers involved of not following a maintenance proceedure to the letter and independent inspections not being raised for such. The Sergeant rigger on that shift I had the misfortune to work for later. It was not hard to see why things went wrong. He should have been asking, where is the independent inspection for this task? Of course duty of care didn't exist.
Ultimately, both Burgess and Cunningham were killed by the failure to heed a maxim hammered into you during initial training, before you're allowed near an aircraft or its equipment. Servicing is not complete until verified.
Burgess' aileron wasn't checked after reassembly. Cunningham's shackles weren't checked for disengagement after reassembly. The difference being an illegal instruction was issued preventing the shackle check.
I am looking forward to reading this with some trepidation. I suspect it will be a solitary activity that will resurface many memories.
It was some 20 years after my ejection that I realised how profoundly my ejection had affected me. Another life changing event was the catalyst for some deep reflection and during that period I realised that beyond the great stories and bluff and bravado, much changed fundamentally on that fateful day when I stepped over the side.
I am forever grateful to Martin Baker, to the guys who built and serviced my seat and of course to long range SAR who came and fished me out of the freezing water after many hours.
#4772
It was some 20 years after my ejection that I realised how profoundly my ejection had affected me. Another life changing event was the catalyst for some deep reflection and during that period I realised that beyond the great stories and bluff and bravado, much changed fundamentally on that fateful day when I stepped over the side.
I am forever grateful to Martin Baker, to the guys who built and serviced my seat and of course to long range SAR who came and fished me out of the freezing water after many hours.
#4772
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Ultimately, both Burgess and Cunningham were killed by the failure to heed a maxim hammered into you during initial training, before you're allowed near an aircraft or its equipment. Servicing is not complete until verified.
Burgess' aileron wasn't checked after reassembly. Cunningham's shackles weren't checked for disengagement after reassembly. The difference being an illegal instruction was issued preventing the shackle check.
Burgess' aileron wasn't checked after reassembly. Cunningham's shackles weren't checked for disengagement after reassembly. The difference being an illegal instruction was issued preventing the shackle check.
Burgess jet was signed for. The Servicing instruction didn't mention the aileron control linkage disconnect I believe but it was a norm to do so as it made the task of removing the component required for the NDT check. A violation in itself of the maintenance procedure but one known about as a simple workaround to ease the task. Well known on the rigger trade desk. Violation compounded by lack of paperwork raised for what automatically was an independent creating action. Not the last time I have heard it happen. Mike Seares failed a Jaguar on an air test post second line maintenance. Yaw trimming was impossible to be stable and was getting worse. Before towing to the hangar, the liney stuck on the EHP to charge the brake accumulator and the rudder deflected full one way by itself. The input rod to the PFCU had been found not pinned, nut not on the bolt and the bolt had fallen out. No paperwork trail to that item (even though it was part of a 2988 entry for the comprehensive yaw checks and should have been raised as a disconnect). No proof on whom of the several riggers could have removed it and no one was man enough to own up.
Such were the horror stories that underpinned Flight Safety training in the 60s, disconnected ailerons and NRVs that could be connected back to front were to be a thing of the past. No more these days it would seem. Instead we are told that military flying is inherently dangerous, so get over it Princess! It would seem it is still not yet dangerous enough. The RAF/MOD has a default incentive to stove pipe its aircraft accidents, emphasising how unique each one is. Rather it should be looking for common causes, to training, supervision, and above all the continual provision and full monitoring of airworthiness. Instead whole fleets have had to be grounded because airworthiness (if they were ever indeed airworthy) has been lost and cannot be regained. That the final safety system, the ejector seat, be rendered unairworthy too is the greatest scandal of all. We must have reform of Military Air Regulation and Accident Investigation. They must be made independent of the MOD and of each other. Until they are, needless airworthiness related fatal air accidents will continue with the resultant avoidable loss in blood and treasure involved.
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I am looking forward to reading this with some trepidation. I suspect it will be a solitary activity that will resurface many memories.
It was some 20 years after my ejection that I realised how profoundly my ejection had affected me. Another life changing event was the catalyst for some deep reflection and during that period I realised that beyond the great stories and bluff and bravado, much changed fundamentally on that fateful day when I stepped over the side.
I am forever grateful to Martin Baker, to the guys who built and serviced my seat and of course to long range SAR who came and fished me out of the freezing water after many hours.
#4772
It was some 20 years after my ejection that I realised how profoundly my ejection had affected me. Another life changing event was the catalyst for some deep reflection and during that period I realised that beyond the great stories and bluff and bravado, much changed fundamentally on that fateful day when I stepped over the side.
I am forever grateful to Martin Baker, to the guys who built and serviced my seat and of course to long range SAR who came and fished me out of the freezing water after many hours.
#4772
Some of the guys shot down over Vietnam (& families) I interviewed were certainly still affected by what happened (perhaps understandably). But so were some involved in perhaps 'slightly' less traumatic ejections.
One thing's for sure! Everyone was very grateful at that second (sometimes third and fourth) chance at life....
Is your #4772 your Ejection Club number - or your number in the Martin-Baker list?
John (or others), would Lockheed's Bill Park be considered in the running for most "required" ejections with 4? I believe Bill ejected from a F-104, A-12, M-21 and Have Blue, I am aware of the brave live subjects who did more in testing, and a few F-8 Crusader pilots with three pulls on the handle. Any late WWII German crews with multiple ejections?
Sorry I cannot find the reference but one of my German night-fighter authors recalled an ejection from his Heinkel 219 after being attacked by a Mosquito. He and his radop/gunner ejected successfully and parachuted to safety. I think the Heinkel seat was powered by compressed air.
John (or others), would Lockheed's Bill Park be considered in the running for most "required" ejections with 4? I believe Bill ejected from a F-104, A-12, M-21 and Have Blue, I am aware of the brave live subjects who did more in testing, and a few F-8 Crusader pilots with three pulls on the handle. Any late WWII German crews with multiple ejections?
And - apparently - he was the inspiration for 'Goose' in Top Gun.....
Sorry I cannot find the reference but one of my German night-fighter authors recalled an ejection from his Heinkel 219 after being attacked by a Mosquito. He and his radop/gunner ejected successfully and parachuted to safety. I think the Heinkel seat was powered by compressed air.
...... it's generally accepted that Helmut Schenk was the first person to 'eject' on 13 Jan 42 from a He-280 - one of the first aircraft to be fitted with a ‘Schleudersitzapparat’: a 265-pound, 'state-of-the-art', compressed air-powered ‘catapult seat device’ escape system....
As to early escape systems involving compressed gas... or big springs......
Back in the 1930s Flying Officer Peter William Dudgeon of 208 Squadron was converting to the Armstrong Whitworth Atlas which could achieve over 200mph in the dive. To assist escape, Dudgeon went to work with draughtsman’s instruments and a box of Meccano. He emerged with detailed blueprints and a working scale model for a jack-in-the-box contraption. The “Dudgeon seat” would be mounted on tubes, each of which contained a powerful compressed spring, held in place by a simple catch. Upon its release, the pilot would be thrust up to the lip of the cockpit, from where he could roll away and release his parachute……
Or you might certainly like the "Swinging Arm" which was the first Martin Baker proposal in the early 1940s. Basically, a medieval catapult strapped to the spine of the aircraft....
Any takers....?
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Some records vary (needless to say.... there was a war on & record-keeping was not a priority!) but it's generally accepted that Helmut Schenk was the first person to 'eject' on 13 Jan 42 from a He-280 - one of the first aircraft to be fitted with a ‘Schleudersitzapparat’: a 265-pound, 'state-of-the-art', compressed air-powered ‘catapult seat device’ escape system....
Last edited by Diff Tail Shim; 24th May 2023 at 23:31.
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