Pilot Error After ‘Sierra Hotel [SH-T HOT] Break’ F-35C Crash

[megan]

Let's face it, it's not that difficult. After all, if the USN can do it...sometimes...

And the UK is among the many nations that can't do it at all...............unless on exchange with the US............or perhaps the Chinese. Enough willy waving.

Never had a crosswind

Crosswind? Don't think its often that shore landings involve the airfield moving laterally away from you - line up, line up.

You Tube

[SpazSinbad]

Thanks 'megan' and also 'riseSirCharles' (ascendcharlie) I'll get to reply to your EXElant posts soon.... Meanwhile (and don't blame me for the poor cropping of this old photo sent to me as a JPG via e-mail) “VF-21 F-4B Phantom II about to trap on USS Midway CVA-41 1965”

[SpazSinbad]

In case some here are not aware 'megan' knows me from our time at NAS Nowra. 'megan' is a RANHFV Iroquois veteran pilot and general all round good fella. As he has made known he was trained in the USofA by the USN system in the late 1960s, thus was able to gain his wings in the T-28C Trojan deck landing aboard USS Lexington. I have mentioned not being able to have my wings confirmed by the RAN (provisional wings only upon graduatjion from the RAAF Basic/Advanced Flying Training Course at the end of 1968). My RAN wings confirmed as mentioned earlier I think once an arrest/catapult carried out.

'AscendCharlie' has a thread about 'BeachBall' his instructor with details about some of his comments in this thread in that old thread. I've attempted to find that thread but cannot. So some details will have to be created again here that he mentions. Meanwhile to show the bona fides of the time the 'study' was made, below is a video of LCDR Barry Diamond SP/XO Senior Pilot of VF-805 in 1975 when this video was made by our ABC News TV media (I think).

LCDR Diamond Senior Pilot (XO) VF-805 mid-1975 Nite DL Quote [the venerable USN pilot above will have quoted same same]

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CMDR Peter Clark RANHFV3 1st Arrest & Catapult MELBOURNE

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Earlier someone (I can check) mentioned 'video of pilot control movements' during a carrier approach. This one is self evident and I'll now look for a Super Etendard chappie doing the same....

Super Hornet FA-18E Control Movements Carrier Landing

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Super Etendard Modernise SEM Carrier Approach Pilot Actions

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[SLXOwft]

Complete thread drift but anyone know if a 7 on one pylon and 2 9s(?) on the other wing was a common fit? I thought the F-4B carried the 7 in the 'normal' under fuselage recesses?

PS. had to temporarily reply & quote megan #101 and SpazSinbad #103 to see the Youtube urls not blank spaces.

[SASless]

Never had a crosswind, and you never had to flare...

Let's face it, it's not that difficult. After all, if the USN can do it...sometimes...

The one thing that was missing from that comment was "".

That and a Ten Thousand Foot long and 150 foot wide concrete runway that is firmly affixed to old Mother Earth and a precision ILS system and no grading of the approach and landing. ​​​​​​​

[OK465]

That and a Ten Thousand Foot long and 150 foot wide concrete runway that is firmly affixed to old Mother Earth and a precision ILS system and no grading of the approach and landing.

Yes, there are never any accidents on 10,000' runways.

This accident was not a result of the landing surface being a boat....but of pilot ineptness. If it had been to a 12,000' runway or the Edwards lakebed, with this approach technique and auto-throttle system error, he'd have probably never made it to brick one and might have even done some damage to the landing gear at impact on the approach end overrun or from a glancing blow to the precision ILS lighting stanchions while attempting to spool up off of IDLE.

[SpazSinbad]

'fdr' said: "...Plonked jets onto 26 [NAS Nowra] recently, and 08, which can be an odd little approach at night too. Still open, and still no better than 45 years ago. Used to be a nice O mess though." Gif below is a VF-805 Squadron Line Book entry made by an ASLT about his CO an LCDR. The CO has boltered at night whilst NIGHT CARQUALLING - perhaps - after the squadron had embarked that day. CO has reached BINGO 'FEUL' (another dyslexic linebook maker ) after boltering [BOLTER BOLTER BOLTER] and diverted ashore to NAS Nowra.

The runway may be 08 but unlikely as 08 was off limits for any night landings by any jets at least per SOP (GCAs at any time also disallowed). So imagine RW 21. 'The BOSS' has bingoed with hook down and not carried out proper landing checks and we must concede he may have been really short on fuel (thus may have used 08 because of strong night easterly wind, bringing more stress). I was not there and don't know the exact details. The trouble with the A4G was once the engine stopped - that was it - no electrics (no nuttin'). BUT as the cartoon illustrates 'The BOSS' did not expect to be arrested so he .... to the tower and they will have / would have sent a crew to tow the aircraft back to 'J' Hangar line once the engine shut down and proper U/C locks placed. The CO would have flown props in RAAF training then SEA FURIES and others ashore at NAS Nowra then lots of Sea Venom time ashore and afloat; in aerobatic teams as well - if I have the correct LCDR in mind.

[megan]

This accident was not a result of the landing surface being a boat....but of pilot ineptness

All accidents have a train of events, sometimes referred to as the swiss cheese model, when a top performing individual, as in this case, comes to grief it behooves the system to address the holes that allowed the accident to occur. Here we had a chap attempting something he had never done before, is it surprising that he might have fluffed it in the great scheme of things? What percentage of your military accidents are due to your "ineptness", or are they due to the human frailties that befall the rest of us. C-130 XV304 with a load of troops made an unintentional gear up landing at Brize Norton, There was no reaction or any corrective action from the crew when the alarm sounded in the cockpit on approach, informing the crew that the undercarriage was not lowered. No technical anomalies were found on the aircraft or its equipment and the aircraft was written oiff. None are immune.

https://www.baaa-acro.com/crash/cras...s-brize-norton

Chuck Yeager wrote off an F-104 that was down to your word "ineptness", the root cause though was his ego wouldn't allow the project pilot, who was skilled at the task Yeager was to attempt, to brief him on what the flight entailed, Yeagers instrument flying skills were not up to the mark and his subsequent loss of control was because he had no understanding, nor wanted to be briefed, of the effects of gyroscopic precession when the aircraft was out of the sensible atmosphere and reliant on the puffer jets for control. As Neil Armstrong commented, "He was a great stick and rudder man, but was bereft of engineering understanding".

[OK465]

or are they due to the human frailties

ineptness definitions: (dictionary.com)
ignorance, ineptitude, failure, impotence, incompetence, inefficiency, lack, shortcoming, weakness, awkwardness, inability, frailty, inadequacy, amateurishness, artlessness, boorishness,

yep.
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[megan]

OK, I guess its just the word that grates, as is calling a female a "whore" when what you really mean is she will compromise herself for money or other gains, the same for blokes as well.

[Courtney Mil]

‘Spaz’ If you take the trouble to read before replying you would have seen that the “testimony” is NOT from the official accident report and, therefore does not include the full detail of the accident. What little that is there, the Nav recounts breaking cloud and seeing that they were well below the glide path. That is a terrible approach that should have been rejected at that point - especially in a K or M. it would have made no difference whether the approach was to a runway or a deck.

[SpazSinbad]

'CM' where did I say the testimony is from the official accident report? The account has quote marks from the beginning. I made no comment I just posted the account as I received it. You then claimed all kinds of things and I was dumbfounded. WUT? You are good at 'look over there' instead of LOOK HERE: RAMPSTRIKE! The article was about that primarily but you chose to ignore that and kerfuffle about other stuff. Beats me. Below is what I wrote in reply just to refresh... Have a look at the F-4 rampstrike post again. What is posted is what I was sent and nothing else.
"'CM': I'm amazed. I'm glad that the text was sent to me many moons ago with that link provided. Perhaps you can join the website and find the text yourself. You do not seem to add value here except your pronouncements. Perhaps you can explain to what you are referring. "From what little I have provided" (perhaps you do not understand) there was a rampstrike with dents in the roundown and 'broken' tail. Don't worry I find the memories fun of our AWIs (all trained at Lossimouth in my day) briefing / debriefing me. Then there wuz the transferees from the RN - including AWIs - all having flown exotic machinery such as the Sea Vixen, Phantom and BUCKING EARs demonstrating/briefing their knowledge of Naval Aviation and weapon delivery and tactics.

BTW the text looks to me like the Observer, GIB (Guy in Back who tells the GIF to put the wheels down) telling a TINS (This Is No SH_T) tale about an RNFAA bigwig(s) reaction to a rampstrike and the events surrounding."

[SpazSinbad]

Perhaps some thought food about CARQUALS for the future USN will not be carried out by the new jet trainer (yet to be decided). That trainer will not be required to deck land so the nuggets will go to their operational squadron (or perhaps an intermediate jet deck landing squadron) all this is not clear at moment. I suppose when the new USN training jet is decided then more detail about the new training system will follow. Partly this comes about because the MAGIC CARPETs of the Super Hornet and the F-35C have made deck landing so easy for nuggets (of course we know they have to use these aids for sure). Links to info about all this could be provided but I just wanted to mention it. AND....

Magic Carpet Ladyhawke Kraken Carrier Approach Simulation

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[SpazSinbad]

A4G Ops 1980 HMAS Melbourne

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RANFAA Jet Aircraft Pot Pourri: Sea Venom, Skyhawk & Macchi

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Early 1970s Documentary RAN FAA MELBOURNE & NAS Nowra

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Meagan First Catapult F-14 TomCat from SPEED & ANGELS

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[LateArmLive]

Originally Posted by SpazSinbad

'LAL': (or should it be 'LOL'?) Have YOU deck landed?

Many times, in jets still in service.

[SpazSinbad]

Good to know. EX-RAN A4G, then modified to EX-RNZAF A-4Kahus still fly today with DRAKEN USA. I'd be very happy to keep the thread on the F-35C topic however as you can see - if you read the posts - many others comment about 'other things'. That is the way of pPRUNe. Please DISTRACT ME with your insights into your experience with NavAv. TIA. AS I started this thread and have gleaned a lot of info on the F-35C over the years; I would like to see pilot comments about it for sure. Some here question my NavAv experience; as I question some others. Again 'the way of the pruners'. I'm always glad to get back on topic.

[Courtney Mil]

‘Spaz’, I’m sorry you’re having comprehension difficulties. Go back to posting your usual plethora of random aircraft carrier fanboy articles. See ya!

[SpazSinbad]

Originally Posted by Courtney Mil

‘Spaz’, I’m sorry you’re having comprehension difficulties. Go back to posting your usual plethora of random aircraft carrier fanboy articles. See ya!

Another RANDOM assertion of yours with no reference or proof provided. You must be imbibing Pprune Juice. I could add 'for an SHB' but I won't.

[SpazSinbad]

GIF graphic for reply to 'Ascend Charlie' way back in this thread. Charlie the other thread had a CVN / Melba comparo so anyway this FORD v MELBOURNE graphic to scale was made instead. Charlie if you can point to your 'Beachball/RAAF Flying Course thread that would be great.

[fdr]

Originally Posted by SpazSinbad

GIF graphic for reply to 'Ascend Charlie' way back in this thread. Charlie the other thread had a CVN / Melba comparo so anyway this FORD v MELBOURNE graphic to scale was made instead. Charlie if you can point to your 'Beachball/RAAF Flying Course thread that would be great.

Yeah, but which one had the booze? That had to help over the ramp, either in the S2 or the A-4, or giving thanks to the ocean from the sea kindly handling of the tub.