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Can Wigston survive the onslaught?

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Can Wigston survive the onslaught?

Old 26th Aug 2022, 21:49
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The mere fact they refer to it a a RAF Board Meeting tells you all you need to know that they are treating the RAF as some sort of corporate entity.

Someone has got to look at whats happening in Ukraine and wake up and smell the coffee, and stop trying to turn all the Armed Services into some trendy corporate plaything.

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Old 26th Aug 2022, 21:50
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Originally Posted by Timelord View Post
Hard to see how this can all be resolved. If you are currently serving and are focused on the delivery of hard air power you will be turned off by all the talk of quotas and “‘wokery”. If, on the other hand, you are focused on delivering diversity and inclusivity you will be turned off by the antedeluvian behaviour reported in the Red Arrows.

I fear it needs a new CAS and a new start where the only thing that matters is preparing to fight the Russians and the Chinese. That is the job of the UK armed forces at the moment. Everything else is fluff.
Defence of the United Kingdom and it's interests. The former is most important. Fighting countries that are way bigger and stronger than us is a sign of lunacy without a clear and present danger to the territory of these shores.

Last edited by Diff Tail Shim; 26th Aug 2022 at 22:06.
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Old 26th Aug 2022, 22:20
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Originally Posted by GeeRam View Post
The mere fact they refer to it a a RAF Board Meeting tells you all you need to know that they are treating the RAF as some sort of corporate entity.

Someone has got to look at whats happening in Ukraine and wake up and smell the coffee, and stop trying to turn all the Armed Services into some trendy corporate plaything.
Yes the Air Force Board, been in existence since well before I joined the RAF nearly 40 years ago!!! In fact, formed 2 years before I was born!!! You really didn't pay attention to how the RAF is actually run during your service career did you??? It was the Air Council / Air Force Council before that from 1917 onwards. The Army and Navy have Boards as well!!!
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Old 27th Aug 2022, 08:03
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Originally Posted by MAINJAFAD View Post
Yes the Air Force Board, been in existence since well before I joined the RAF nearly 40 years ago!!! In fact, formed 2 years before I was born!!! You really didn't pay attention to how the RAF is actually run during your service career did you??? It was the Air Council / Air Force Council before that from 1917 onwards. The Army and Navy have Boards as well!!!
MAINJAFAD - You are of course correct in what you say. However, I happen to think GeeRam also has a valid point about the RAF being turned into a corporate identity - it's just that he didn't pick a good example. Towards my the end of my time in the RAF things seemed to change (yes, I know, change is inevitable and shouldn't be resisted just for it's own sake) towards a more commercial type organization, embracing all the 'on trend' aspects of the commercial world. Even the language changed, and we were suddenly overrun with 'stakeholders' and 'customers'. Quite often it was the more senior officers who were the worst, no doubt vying to prove they were on the corporate bandwagon. I attended a few meeting towards the end that were full of corporate bingo bullshit terms, and saw the odd junior officer/NCO looking at each other as if to say "what the f...". I believe one OC Ops referred to the resident Squadrons on their station as "customers". We started referring to armed conflict as the "kinetic phase" of an operation, as if that somehow sanitizes or downplays the reality of being an armed service. The RAF became just another "career option" out of many available, where it was possible to get very near the top without any exposure to the reality of being in an "armed service".

Anyway, feel free to disagree. I probably haven't explained it very well, trying to describe a change in culture, and one I left years ago. As I said earlier, change is inevitable, and I saw lots in my fairly lengthy RAF career, I just didn't view the drive towards commercial attitudes and procedures as a positive one for a fighting force that is intended to send people in harms way when required.

I believe back in the days of RAFG, on arrival new personnel were driven to the border and shown the "iron curtain", watch towers, guards, barbed wire, etc - with the simple message "that's why you're here". While such obvious symbols aren't available today, in a world of ever changing circumstances and shadowy wars against terrorism, I personally don't have much faith that many of the VSOs running today's RAF still "know why they're there" - in my opinion they're too busy padding out their CVs, creating their LinkedIn accounts and making sure they avoid any fallout from bad news.... no doubt other on here disagree (and will do so).

Last edited by Biggus; 27th Aug 2022 at 08:32.
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Old 27th Aug 2022, 08:39
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Biggus - I'm sure you know this but you've just perfectly paraphrased the Nimrod Review. Another of its recommendations that MoD ignored.

Mainjafad - Correct about Boards, and replacing 'Board Submissions' (seeking approval FROM THE USER'S VIEWPOINT to acquire capability) was replaced with 'Business Cases', at a stroke utterly confusing staff because the wrong people then took it upon themselves to sign them. A bloody industry was born, which contributes absolutely nothing.
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Old 27th Aug 2022, 10:28
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Originally Posted by Fortissimo View Post
What, first non-aviator and first dentist??! 🤣🤣
…..And would the British Dental association or General Dental Council even think of having a pilot without dental training in charge of their organisations. I think not.
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Old 27th Aug 2022, 12:39
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I believe back in the days of RAFG, on arrival new personnel were driven to the border and shown the "iron curtain", watch towers, guards, barbed wire, etc - with the simple message "that's why you're here".

On a lighter note, for our three tours we were told the whereabouts of the nearest PX, Karstadt and a store where Abwicklungscheine were accepted!

Last edited by langleybaston; 27th Aug 2022 at 12:43. Reason: clarity
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Old 27th Aug 2022, 12:54
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Originally Posted by RetiredBA/BY View Post
…..And would the British Dental association or General Dental Council even think of having a pilot without dental training in charge of their organisations. I think not.
And Why not, BA?

The ‘corporate’ (Sorry ‘Air Force’ is the wrong phrase these days) line is exactly the same today as it was back in the 80s when MoDUKAiR started down the slippery slope of compromising safety to achieve cost savings. The mantra back then was you don’t have to be knowledgeable to ‘run’ an authority. Just need to be a Manager. In my own little world, A Wg Cdr Engineer (with at least some knowledge of rubber and leatherware) was replaced by a Supplier (very nice chap) just before the dept became an ‘Integrated Project Team’ and moved up to WYTON. At least he had the knowledgeable but lower level staff remaining IMHO The Thin end of the wedge. The IPT became more and more concerned with cost saving and economising . Technical knowledge and expertise were driven down to lower levels of ‘management’ and civilian staff, with little or no TK&E were brought in at that level. (Cos they were cheap I expect) Then…higher level CSs rapidly replaced the mid and even senior engineering posts. Again whilst the chaps were technical ‘managers’ they were lacking in specialist knowledge. Thus, the MoD lost all its ‘corporate’ knowledge within a very short time. Sadly, it took some tragic incidents to recently highlight the loss…

So perhaps you could soon get your teeth pulled by a trainee pilot ‘filling’ in time during his MFT holding time, whilst waiting for a course… (I was tempted to put ‘gapping’ …)

IGMC


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Old 27th Aug 2022, 17:00
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I suspect that was the reason why the JT rank went, cost savings, why have a direct entry JT when you could get the same person and get the first couple of years out of him for a lower wage.
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Old 27th Aug 2022, 22:25
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Originally Posted by RetiredBA/BY View Post
…..And would the British Dental association or General Dental Council even think of having a pilot without dental training in charge of their organisations. I think not.
Nice sentiment BA but unfortunately not entirely correct....BDA - yep. GDC however hasn't had a dentist 'in charge' for many years and hasn't got a particularly spectacular reputation amongst its registrants
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Old 4th Sep 2022, 15:15
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Originally Posted by RetiredBA/BY View Post
…..And would the British Dental association or General Dental Council even think of having a pilot without dental training in charge of their organisations. I think not.
I think you would be surprised by the number of retired senior officers who are the CEs of professional and trade bodies, as well of bursars (COOs) of universities and Oxbridge collages.
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Old 4th Sep 2022, 19:05
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One is surprised that one was thought to be surprised.

The last few years of a VSO career are seemingly not spent doing one's job, correcting the errors of predecessors, contemplating golf and a yacht on a super pension, but on feathering the nest.
There used to be a moratorium* on visiting WP countries for several years after retirement if one had held PV or higher. A moratorium on taking a job for a year or two for one stars and above would cool their courage.
*["Moratorium in not quite the word I seek but is near enough].
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 00:57
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B I, I'm (or rather was) in the plank brigade but I could follow your drift and share your despair. The RAF's purpose is war, when it isn't at war it should be preparing for war. The support it gets from industry and commerce should enable it in that purpose. The leadership of the RAF should be directed principally at that purpose, all other considerations are secondary. Thus training and equipment must be of the highest calibre to ensure that the RAF can prevail in war. If it is not then we are simply being prepared for defeat by a rival air force. There seems little point in that so we need to employ every tool available, and I completely endorse your call for a return to traditional military airmanship in all its guises. It is more vital than ever, given the problems that abound in military airworthiness now (cue the apologists).
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 03:29
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So you’re in the trenches and the invading hordes come charging over the hill, what do you do, shoot xyz of white men then stop shooting in the hope you will be able to kill xyz amount of coloured people and women to ensure you are meeting your diversity quotas and cannot be seen to be racist. I suppose with a full mag you can break down the numbers of rounds required to meet ones quota.

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Old 5th Sep 2022, 11:44
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What happened to BI's post? Did BI delete it, or did the corporate protection filter kick in? I recognise everything that Baldeep wrote.
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 11:55
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Originally Posted by Roland Pulfrew View Post
What happened to BI's post? Did BI delete it, or did the corporate protection filter kick in? I recognise everything that Baldeep wrote.
I should have quoted him, as I now do for you. So much to learn, so little time....
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 15:57
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Originally Posted by Chugalug2 View Post
I should have quoted him, as I now do for you. So much to learn, so little time....
Absurd that BI's excellent post has disappeared ................ airbrush anyone?
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 17:21
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Was it the chutney post about MFTS and failing to change his practice?
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Old 6th Sep 2022, 07:57
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Originally Posted by alfred_the_great View Post
Was it the chutney post about MFTS and failing to change his practice?
Yes, though I wouldn't presume to paraphrase BI's post. Suffice it to say Roland probably has it right, that critical references to a contracting company offended PPRuNe policy. So be it, their pram, their toys. In any case the point of what BI had to say was that contracting out such a core activity as the flight training of RAF aircrew, changes the traditional military aspects (he instanced military airmanship) of instruction. The common factor with the other major concern affecting the future conduct of UK Air Power, that of airworthiness, is of course the RAF leadership. The combination of maintaining the cover up of past VSO sabotage of UK Military Air Safety, and the feathering of nests involved in contracting out core activities, does not bode well for our future struggles for air superiority. The VSOs involved will no doubt be long gone, but their malevolent bequests will haunt the RAF for decades.

The cover up needs to stop and be owned up to. Reform of Air Regulation and Accident Investigation must follow, independent of the MOD and of each other. Then attention needs to focus on the RAF CoC outside of the station gates, because the present system clearly doesn't work for maintaining UK Air Power.
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Old 6th Sep 2022, 10:49
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Originally Posted by Chugalug2 View Post
Yes, though I wouldn't presume to paraphrase BI's post. Suffice it to say Roland probably has it right, that critical references to a contracting company offended PPRuNe policy. So be it, their pram, their toys. In any case the point of what BI had to say was that contracting out such a core activity as the flight training of RAF aircrew, changes the traditional military aspects (he instanced military airmanship) of instruction. The common factor with the other major concern affecting the future conduct of UK Air Power, that of airworthiness, is of course the RAF leadership. The combination of maintaining the cover up of past VSO sabotage of UK Military Air Safety, and the feathering of nests involved in contracting out core activities, does not bode well for our future struggles for air superiority. The VSOs involved will no doubt be long gone, but their malevolent bequests will haunt the RAF for decades.

The cover up needs to stop and be owned up to. Reform of Air Regulation and Accident Investigation must follow, independent of the MOD and of each other. Then attention needs to focus on the RAF CoC outside of the station gates, because the present system clearly doesn't work for maintaining UK Air Power.
In the interests of retention I have quoted the above good precis without presuming to comment further.
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