TOP BRASS ON PARADE
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So, let me get this straight, you accuse someone of being naive by reading what’s in the media and then you have to use Google. You then start throwing insults around but accuse the other person of being immature. Finally, your messages have been largely incoherent, particularly your final one, yet you accuse the other person of being under the influence. According to you I’m also a VC10 pilot.
I mean yeah, sure, all seems legit.
I mean yeah, sure, all seems legit.
Foghorn, what is your beef? No RAF in the fight, out-competed by a lower rank from the Senior Service and you are drunk!
If you have anything else to say then tap away, hun.
Frodo, ex F3 nav, why did you never get promoted ?
Foghorn, he or she (they) have made you like a right PEN15. Stop drinking , go to bed, grow up and try again.
I did not know that FRODU was a career Flt Lt, we should drink one day. I have time for PAS heroes.
Now I am slightly incoherent, and under the effects whereby I should don….. good night, idiots!
I did not know that FRODU was a career Flt Lt, we should drink one day. I have time for PAS heroes.
Now I am slightly incoherent, and under the effects whereby I should don….. good night, idiots!
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Langley, you don't have to look at every post, much the same as we don't don't have to look at every headline subject. You have a choice to move on! We will miss you.
Last edited by popeye107; 25th Sep 2021 at 23:20.
[QUOTE=langleybaston;11116816]I thought that ARRSE was the lowest of the military Fora on line.
I now suspect that PPRUNE is competing in the race to the bottom. Where have the occasionally sober and literate grown-ups gone? Those with a sense of humour and fairness and balance?[/QUOTE
why respond! You are equally as simple as all the others. Don’t think you sit above anyone here, old chap.
I now suspect that PPRUNE is competing in the race to the bottom. Where have the occasionally sober and literate grown-ups gone? Those with a sense of humour and fairness and balance?[/QUOTE
why respond! You are equally as simple as all the others. Don’t think you sit above anyone here, old chap.
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A fascinating thread and discussion. It isn’t lost in circles of power that perhaps aircraft carriers weren’t the best defence solution for the U.K. and carrier advocates are very much out of favour politically. Equally, there are some who have doubts about the alleged wokeism of CAS. The inability of all three Services to deliver non partisan input into BoJo might just result in nil points for the single Service chiefs……..that sort of leaves two
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Foghorn, he or she (they) have made you like a right PEN15. Stop drinking , go to bed, grow up and try again.
I did not know that FRODU was a career Flt Lt, we should drink one day. I have time for PAS heroes.
Now I am slightly incoherent, and under the effects whereby I should don….. good night, idiots!
I did not know that FRODU was a career Flt Lt, we should drink one day. I have time for PAS heroes.
Now I am slightly incoherent, and under the effects whereby I should don….. good night, idiots!
You've just embarrassing yourself. Might I suggest you need to grow up and sober up.
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I’ve just googled him, and he’s impressive. I do think the RN 2* also out there is an impressive player. Vice Admiral Ben King has presence, and has commanded more than a couple of warships.
Frodo, do you know any of the ‘potentials’, and if not what is your point? You are particularly naive if you think you can rely on the press for reporting on ships in harms way, fella.
Frodo, do you know any of the ‘potentials’, and if not what is your point? You are particularly naive if you think you can rely on the press for reporting on ships in harms way, fella.
My point was that, just like your argument that only RN types can be leaders because they’ve “demonstrated leadership on a warship in harm’s way”, I could counter-argue that no RN warship since 1982 has truly been in harms way.
Of course the RAF can generate leaders, just as the Army and RN can. If you don’t believe that, all you are proving is that YOU aren’t capable of being sufficiently joint for the top job.
I don’t have a dog in the fight, and to be brutally honest I don’t care who gets the top job so long as they can rise above pointless single Service rivalries and politics, and do what is best for the UK. I work in a joint organisation and, funnily enough, one of the most impressive leaders I’ve seen is my current (civvy) 2*. Of the senior RAF types I’ve encountered, AM Knighton I think stood out but it doesn’t really matter what I think now, does it?
For what it’s worth, I’m still in, not a Flt Lt and have funnily enough expanded my CV somewhat since I left the F3 nearly 15 years ago…
‘Of course the RAF can generate leaders,’
I still don’t think you get ‘leadership’, you may have a handle on management, but leadership isn’t a term you get to pin on with medals.
We all have an opinion on what leadership is, but testing it is easier for some professions than others. How does one prove leadership, say, from a cockpit?
it matters not, as like you I have no say, but be careful about declaring each other as leaders, it’s something to develop for a few people- but most of the time we manage, and many managers haven’t heard of the verb, ‘to inspire’.
I still don’t think you get ‘leadership’, you may have a handle on management, but leadership isn’t a term you get to pin on with medals.
We all have an opinion on what leadership is, but testing it is easier for some professions than others. How does one prove leadership, say, from a cockpit?
it matters not, as like you I have no say, but be careful about declaring each other as leaders, it’s something to develop for a few people- but most of the time we manage, and many managers haven’t heard of the verb, ‘to inspire’.
CB
Isn’t this whole conversation a little like arguing over whose Dad has the best company car?!
Are you at least partially aware that an RAF pilot’s leadership does not take place 100% in a cockpit? Are you aware of units called Squadrons that often deploy together and regularly to dangerous locations?
The Boss or EAW Commander in such locations is often required to show a little more than simple management or be able to lead a four ship.
Are you trying to suggest that, in contrast, senior Naval officers have spent 100% of their command time at sea and could rival Capt Jack Aubrey with their inspirational leadership?
Likewise would an Army individual like to come on here and claim it’s all Tim Collins speeches and bayonet charges?
Like everyone else on this thread I couldn’t care less who ends up as CDS. The VSOs I have met seem very good at understanding and representing joint issues.
My current and previous top bosses have been Army 2 Stars. I have been genuinely impressed with how well they seem to understand my Air related issues and their willingness to get to grips with the issues that affect me and my world.
I think everyone would do themselves a favour by trying not to view the world through their own blinkered, single service lenses.
BV
Are you at least partially aware that an RAF pilot’s leadership does not take place 100% in a cockpit? Are you aware of units called Squadrons that often deploy together and regularly to dangerous locations?
The Boss or EAW Commander in such locations is often required to show a little more than simple management or be able to lead a four ship.
Are you trying to suggest that, in contrast, senior Naval officers have spent 100% of their command time at sea and could rival Capt Jack Aubrey with their inspirational leadership?
Likewise would an Army individual like to come on here and claim it’s all Tim Collins speeches and bayonet charges?
Like everyone else on this thread I couldn’t care less who ends up as CDS. The VSOs I have met seem very good at understanding and representing joint issues.
My current and previous top bosses have been Army 2 Stars. I have been genuinely impressed with how well they seem to understand my Air related issues and their willingness to get to grips with the issues that affect me and my world.
I think everyone would do themselves a favour by trying not to view the world through their own blinkered, single service lenses.
BV
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Isn’t this whole conversation a little like arguing over whose Dad has the best company car?!
Are you at least partially aware that an RAF pilot’s leadership does not take place 100% in a cockpit? Are you aware of units called Squadrons that often deploy together and regularly to dangerous locations?
The Boss or EAW Commander in such locations is often required to show a little more than simple management or be able to lead a four ship.
Are you trying to suggest that, in contrast, senior Naval officers have spent 100% of their command time at sea and could rival Capt Jack Aubrey with their inspirational leadership?
Likewise would an Army individual like to come on here and claim it’s all Tim Collins speeches and bayonet charges?
Like everyone else on this thread I couldn’t care less who ends up as CDS. The VSOs I have met seem very good at understanding and representing joint issues.
My current and previous top bosses have been Army 2 Stars. I have been genuinely impressed with how well they seem to understand my Air related issues and their willingness to get to grips with the issues that affect me and my world.
I think everyone would do themselves a favour by trying not to view the world through their own blinkered, single service lenses.
BV
Are you at least partially aware that an RAF pilot’s leadership does not take place 100% in a cockpit? Are you aware of units called Squadrons that often deploy together and regularly to dangerous locations?
The Boss or EAW Commander in such locations is often required to show a little more than simple management or be able to lead a four ship.
Are you trying to suggest that, in contrast, senior Naval officers have spent 100% of their command time at sea and could rival Capt Jack Aubrey with their inspirational leadership?
Likewise would an Army individual like to come on here and claim it’s all Tim Collins speeches and bayonet charges?
Like everyone else on this thread I couldn’t care less who ends up as CDS. The VSOs I have met seem very good at understanding and representing joint issues.
My current and previous top bosses have been Army 2 Stars. I have been genuinely impressed with how well they seem to understand my Air related issues and their willingness to get to grips with the issues that affect me and my world.
I think everyone would do themselves a favour by trying not to view the world through their own blinkered, single service lenses.
BV
‘Of course the RAF can generate leaders,’
I still don’t think you get ‘leadership’, you may have a handle on management, but leadership isn’t a term you get to pin on with medals.
We all have an opinion on what leadership is, but testing it is easier for some professions than others. How does one prove leadership, say, from a cockpit?
it matters not, as like you I have no say, but be careful about declaring each other as leaders, it’s something to develop for a few people- but most of the time we manage, and many managers haven’t heard of the verb, ‘to inspire’.
I still don’t think you get ‘leadership’, you may have a handle on management, but leadership isn’t a term you get to pin on with medals.
We all have an opinion on what leadership is, but testing it is easier for some professions than others. How does one prove leadership, say, from a cockpit?
it matters not, as like you I have no say, but be careful about declaring each other as leaders, it’s something to develop for a few people- but most of the time we manage, and many managers haven’t heard of the verb, ‘to inspire’.
For what it’s worth, which isn’t a lot, I’ve seen senior officers of all three Services and of multiple nationalities. Some were good, some bad, others middling. The one thing that wasn’t relevant in their competence and qualities was the colour of the uniform and rank braid they wore.
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The female senior officers that I have met are both in position because of their talent, not their gender. If one gets the first female to hold ANY post, it is on merit. My opinion of course.
In that story, not only was CAS considered a contender for the job, but Gerry Mayhew had been asked whether he would consider allowing his name to go forward as a candidate - along with Lt Gen Jim Hockenhull and Ben Key. Only the latter had said ‘yes’. I suspect that GM considers himself too young (he’d be the youngest ever CDS by something like six years, IIRC).
So the basic premise for the attack on the RAF leadership is predicated upon Ben Key being one of three officers thinking ‘sounds interesting’ and the Telegraph’s rehashing of the story omitting the two other officers and Mike Wigston’s names. Basing any presumptions purely on defence stories in the Telegraph is a dangerous game…
FWIW, the rumour mill in my little corner of the world suggests that MW is thought too young at the moment: youngest of the Chiefs by a couple of years, and younger than Ben Key - and Jim Hockenhull, for that matter. Rumour control speculates MW stands a decent chance of being in the mix for VCDS after Tim Fraser (don’t entirely rule him out of the CDS job), and then competing for CDS in three years time; he’d still be one of the youngest CDS’s in history (as will TR on taking up the appointment if he’s chosen). Other rumour mills may vary, of course.
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The further point to be made is this is the recycling of a story from The Times three weeks ago…
In that story, not only was CAS considered a contender for the job, but Gerry Mayhew had been asked whether he would consider allowing his name to go forward as a candidate - along with Lt Gen Jim Hockenhull and Ben Key. Only the latter had said ‘yes’. I suspect that GM considers himself too young (he’d be the youngest ever CDS by something like six years, IIRC).
So the basic premise for the attack on the RAF leadership is predicated upon Ben Key being one of three officers thinking ‘sounds interesting’ and the Telegraph’s rehashing of the story omitting the two other officers and Mike Wigston’s names. Basing any presumptions purely on defence stories in the Telegraph is a dangerous game…
FWIW, the rumour mill in my little corner of the world suggests that MW is thought too young at the moment: youngest of the Chiefs by a couple of years, and younger than Ben Key - and Jim Hockenhull, for that matter. Rumour control speculates MW stands a decent chance of being in the mix for VCDS after Tim Fraser (don’t entirely rule him out of the CDS job), and then competing for CDS in three years time; he’d still be one of the youngest CDS’s in history (as will TR on taking up the appointment if he’s chosen). Other rumour mills may vary, of course.
In that story, not only was CAS considered a contender for the job, but Gerry Mayhew had been asked whether he would consider allowing his name to go forward as a candidate - along with Lt Gen Jim Hockenhull and Ben Key. Only the latter had said ‘yes’. I suspect that GM considers himself too young (he’d be the youngest ever CDS by something like six years, IIRC).
So the basic premise for the attack on the RAF leadership is predicated upon Ben Key being one of three officers thinking ‘sounds interesting’ and the Telegraph’s rehashing of the story omitting the two other officers and Mike Wigston’s names. Basing any presumptions purely on defence stories in the Telegraph is a dangerous game…
FWIW, the rumour mill in my little corner of the world suggests that MW is thought too young at the moment: youngest of the Chiefs by a couple of years, and younger than Ben Key - and Jim Hockenhull, for that matter. Rumour control speculates MW stands a decent chance of being in the mix for VCDS after Tim Fraser (don’t entirely rule him out of the CDS job), and then competing for CDS in three years time; he’d still be one of the youngest CDS’s in history (as will TR on taking up the appointment if he’s chosen). Other rumour mills may vary, of course.
My opinion only, I don’t think Wiggy is cut out for the role of CDS or VCDS. I do believe the others are better. Alas, the reality is I couldn’t really care less who gets the appointment.
The Royal Air Force was deliberately designed to be a bureaucracy outside of the Station Gates, in order that centralised control of its activities and expenditures be the better assured. One is tempted immediately to add, "So that worked well then, didn't it?". As a result, leadership has tended to stop at the very same gates, ie involving SO's only (though with certain 1* exceptions). Above that it is simply a pyramid, with "Commanders", having ever more impressive titles, embedded into various levels that then feed into the MOD (née AM) secretariat. It may have worked well enough in WWII but has long since become a self serving way to the stars, rather than serving the good of the Service.
One result has been the scandal of the Air Safety cover up, whereby VSOs reputations have outweighed the most basic requirement of any air force, that is to have airworthy aircraft! Unless and until the Royal Air Force bites the bullet, admits to the cover up, and faces up to the urgent need for reforming UK Military Airworthiness and Air Accident Investigation, it will be poorly equipped to engage in an Air War with another Air Power. Whether or not it might provide for a new CDS pales into insignificance by comparison.
One result has been the scandal of the Air Safety cover up, whereby VSOs reputations have outweighed the most basic requirement of any air force, that is to have airworthy aircraft! Unless and until the Royal Air Force bites the bullet, admits to the cover up, and faces up to the urgent need for reforming UK Military Airworthiness and Air Accident Investigation, it will be poorly equipped to engage in an Air War with another Air Power. Whether or not it might provide for a new CDS pales into insignificance by comparison.
Back on thread - when he was a few years younger Daniel Craig looked a lot like a well known Sea Harrier driver and CVS Cdr(Air). He also had operation experience in the Balkans and had done an exchange with the US Marine Corps.
Good to see the ‘Outrage Bus’ has stepped into over-drive. sS rivalry used to be healthy and at times funny, a sad indictment of our times as we struggle for meagre funds. The Centre has become all too powerful with almost everyone owning a ‘UKStratCom’ prefix to their email. The sS community will struggle for traction in this brave new IR/DCP world
I’ve just googled him, and he’s impressive. I do think the RN 2* also out there is an impressive player. Vice Admiral Ben King has presence, and has commanded more than a couple of warships.
Frodo, do you know any of the ‘potentials’, and if not what is your point? You are particularly naive if you think you can rely on the press for reporting on ships in harms way, fella.
Frodo, do you know any of the ‘potentials’, and if not what is your point? You are particularly naive if you think you can rely on the press for reporting on ships in harms way, fella.
Incidentally, what on earth does Bob Viking think he's doing, trying as he so often does to inject some common sense into the argument, and concluding "I think everyone would do themselves a favour by trying not to view the world through their own blinkered, single service lenses."? That said, I'm backing Air Marshal Knighton for the top job - in the longer term.
Jack
