AUKUS
Rounding up cats comes to mind.....
I wonder if Australia made and fast alternative defence order the French would save face? Their tantrums akin to the CCP. What have we bought from the French that works? Helicopters? Nope. Swindled on capability and offsets ( where the subs were going ). The KC-330 seems to be a success. Additional tankers to support AUKUS aircraft in the region wouldn't go astray.
I wonder if Australia made and fast alternative defence order the French would save face? Their tantrums akin to the CCP. What have we bought from the French that works? Helicopters? Nope. Swindled on capability and offsets ( where the subs were going ). The KC-330 seems to be a success. Additional tankers to support AUKUS aircraft in the region wouldn't go astray.
Rounding up cats comes to mind.....
I wonder if Australia made and fast alternative defence order the French would save face? Their tantrums akin to the CCP. What have we bought from the French that works? Helicopters? Nope. Swindled on capability and offsets ( where the subs were going ). The KC-330 seems to be a success. Additional tankers to support AUKUS aircraft in the region wouldn't go astray.
I wonder if Australia made and fast alternative defence order the French would save face? Their tantrums akin to the CCP. What have we bought from the French that works? Helicopters? Nope. Swindled on capability and offsets ( where the subs were going ). The KC-330 seems to be a success. Additional tankers to support AUKUS aircraft in the region wouldn't go astray.
To late after tanty that macron threw. I wouldn't do anything before election all you would be doing is helping out macron. Dunno anything about french politics or his opposition so what options might exist. Ultimately they made their bed they can lie in it
So OF is your assertion the the CCP is just completely misunderstood by the West and that Xi Jiping really just wants to make China a peaceful trading nation? Are you suggesting that the Chinese have a legitimate claim to the 9 dash line in the SCS and that invading and subjugating the Taiwanese by force is also legitimate? Is their treatment of the Uighurs and democracy advocates in HK acceptable in your opinion because the CCP have every right to commit genocide in the name of communist thought? America isn't perfect and they made a big effort to stay out of world affairs in the 30's but Western democracies couldn't do without their industrial and manpower capabilities. If only the Communists were content to keep their ideology within their own borders and not have a doctrine of making every country Communist then there would have been a much more peaceful period of time post WW2.
The CCP want to defeat the West and rub their noses in what the CCP call the Century of Humiliation. All the West is doing by rearming and Australia getting nuclear powered subs is making a statement that it is not going to happen without a fight. Xi Jiping made his intentions very clear when he got rid of the 5 year term for CCP Chairman and made himself leader for life. If you want to look at the timeline of deteriorating relations with China then that is a good place to start.
The CCP want to defeat the West and rub their noses in what the CCP call the Century of Humiliation. All the West is doing by rearming and Australia getting nuclear powered subs is making a statement that it is not going to happen without a fight. Xi Jiping made his intentions very clear when he got rid of the 5 year term for CCP Chairman and made himself leader for life. If you want to look at the timeline of deteriorating relations with China then that is a good place to start.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
French still throwing toys out of their cot. I presume NATO makes France a “vassal” state to the USA as well?
Clément Beaune, France’s outspoken Europe minister, turned his fire on the UK. “Our British friends explained to us that they were leaving the EU to create Global Britain. As you can see, it is a return to the American fold and accepting a form of vassal status,” he told Public Sénat, a state television station.
In an interview with France 24, he added: “Global Britain seems to be more about [being] a junior partner of the US than working with different allies.”
Clément Beaune, France’s outspoken Europe minister, turned his fire on the UK. “Our British friends explained to us that they were leaving the EU to create Global Britain. As you can see, it is a return to the American fold and accepting a form of vassal status,” he told Public Sénat, a state television station.
In an interview with France 24, he added: “Global Britain seems to be more about [being] a junior partner of the US than working with different allies.”
Gents
Two quick questions for those far more in the know than I ?
1. I note China announced last week they had made small nuclear reactors that were cooled by salt. I seem to remember reading mr clancy’s finest that the fastest subs in the world, the akula class have small sodium cooled reactors? So wonder if China is about to up its game there?
2. Didn’t Australia have a very bad experiences with thier french attack helicopters? Coupled with all the security breaches in the french sub company and issues they have get these subs into service in France I guess it a case of fool me one same on you fool me twice shame on me ?
Two quick questions for those far more in the know than I ?
1. I note China announced last week they had made small nuclear reactors that were cooled by salt. I seem to remember reading mr clancy’s finest that the fastest subs in the world, the akula class have small sodium cooled reactors? So wonder if China is about to up its game there?
2. Didn’t Australia have a very bad experiences with thier french attack helicopters? Coupled with all the security breaches in the french sub company and issues they have get these subs into service in France I guess it a case of fool me one same on you fool me twice shame on me ?
Gents
Two quick questions for those far more in the know than I ?
1. I note China announced last week they had made small nuclear reactors that were cooled by salt. I seem to remember reading mr clancy’s finest that the fastest subs in the world, the akula class have small sodium cooled reactors? So wonder if China is about to up its game there?
2. Didn’t Australia have a very bad experiences with thier french attack helicopters? Coupled with all the security breaches in the french sub company and issues they have get these subs into service in France I guess it a case of fool me one same on you fool me twice shame on me ?
Two quick questions for those far more in the know than I ?
1. I note China announced last week they had made small nuclear reactors that were cooled by salt. I seem to remember reading mr clancy’s finest that the fastest subs in the world, the akula class have small sodium cooled reactors? So wonder if China is about to up its game there?
2. Didn’t Australia have a very bad experiences with thier french attack helicopters? Coupled with all the security breaches in the french sub company and issues they have get these subs into service in France I guess it a case of fool me one same on you fool me twice shame on me ?
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Back-stabbing, once again.
Betrayal treason and duplicity... project cancelled with no warning, and Brits should be proud of that, considering it to be a success of secret diplomacy ? just like Mers-el-Kébir and running away from the front line to rembark at Dunkirk in 1940 - no warnings, and they are proud of that ? Not a way to treat friends, simply.
First, an agreement had been signed between both governments, after years of discussions. Simply saying like Oz PM that "it's not a change of mind, it's a change of needs" is a little bit too easy : I had signed for a house, but now I need an apartment. I had signed for a Chrysler, but now I think a Ford would be better suited to my needs.
By the way, in the agreement was written that :
- going away from it had to be submitted in written manner. Still nothing received in Paris, it seems.
- should breaching the agreement happen after 24 months (which is the case) 12 months of dicussion are needed....
In other words, you just don't walk away from such a contract. Lawyers will have their day, and price will be high for Australian taxpayers, that's the best we can hope. And don't forget dozens of Australian families which had already moved to the French shipyards, simply dropped by their government (like they dropped Oz citizens worldwide during COVID, by the way)
Years ago, they didn't want nuclear subs - now they have been convinced by the US, that it's what they need.....
Why French subs ? because US and UK are no longer building diesel subs. And those ones have been chosen by India, Malaysia, Chile, Brasil....
Germans shipyards are only good those days in small subs - for Baltic or Mediterranea - and Japanese are not as good as the French in making silent and war-going subs (no nukes in Japan) French subs do benefit from technology of nuclear SLBM subs, even if Paris will not export it ("nuclear dissuasion")
After chaos in Kabul and running away from Bagram without informing the Afghan Army (how surprising they didn't fight after that !) and dropping NATO allies in the same country, notably Germany and...UK ! the world is getting used to the value of the US signature. And especially in two capital cities : Kiev and Taîpei.... Beijing and Moscow just know they have to wait a couple of years now.
Anyway, UK, Autralia and US are just the same country, everybody should know that. And please don't tell us "we came to liberate you in 1944" No, we were on the way, that's all. If it had been more interesting to land in Netherlands than in Normandy, that's what would have been happening, and France would have been bypassed like Greece or Norway have been. We suffered more casulaties from US and RAF bombings than from German occupation, and more ships have been sunk by the sames, than by German action. And remember Syria-Lebanon in 1941 - invaded for no real reason, with quite a few RAAF aircraft shot down by French Armée de l'air, for those who forgot - same for Australian troops strafed on the roads.
Anyway, fascinating to see how many Navy experts we have here, in this aviation forum.
I personnally spent some time in Marine Nationale subs. Anybody here ?
First, an agreement had been signed between both governments, after years of discussions. Simply saying like Oz PM that "it's not a change of mind, it's a change of needs" is a little bit too easy : I had signed for a house, but now I need an apartment. I had signed for a Chrysler, but now I think a Ford would be better suited to my needs.
By the way, in the agreement was written that :
- going away from it had to be submitted in written manner. Still nothing received in Paris, it seems.
- should breaching the agreement happen after 24 months (which is the case) 12 months of dicussion are needed....
In other words, you just don't walk away from such a contract. Lawyers will have their day, and price will be high for Australian taxpayers, that's the best we can hope. And don't forget dozens of Australian families which had already moved to the French shipyards, simply dropped by their government (like they dropped Oz citizens worldwide during COVID, by the way)
Years ago, they didn't want nuclear subs - now they have been convinced by the US, that it's what they need.....
Why French subs ? because US and UK are no longer building diesel subs. And those ones have been chosen by India, Malaysia, Chile, Brasil....
Germans shipyards are only good those days in small subs - for Baltic or Mediterranea - and Japanese are not as good as the French in making silent and war-going subs (no nukes in Japan) French subs do benefit from technology of nuclear SLBM subs, even if Paris will not export it ("nuclear dissuasion")
After chaos in Kabul and running away from Bagram without informing the Afghan Army (how surprising they didn't fight after that !) and dropping NATO allies in the same country, notably Germany and...UK ! the world is getting used to the value of the US signature. And especially in two capital cities : Kiev and Taîpei.... Beijing and Moscow just know they have to wait a couple of years now.
Anyway, UK, Autralia and US are just the same country, everybody should know that. And please don't tell us "we came to liberate you in 1944" No, we were on the way, that's all. If it had been more interesting to land in Netherlands than in Normandy, that's what would have been happening, and France would have been bypassed like Greece or Norway have been. We suffered more casulaties from US and RAF bombings than from German occupation, and more ships have been sunk by the sames, than by German action. And remember Syria-Lebanon in 1941 - invaded for no real reason, with quite a few RAAF aircraft shot down by French Armée de l'air, for those who forgot - same for Australian troops strafed on the roads.
Anyway, fascinating to see how many Navy experts we have here, in this aviation forum.
I personnally spent some time in Marine Nationale subs. Anybody here ?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
As I said, toys out of cot…. 
Anglo-Saxon to be accurate. The Anglosphere always been seen suspiciously and mistrusted by the French. So why are they so surprised?
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...ded-from-aukus
The real reason France was excluded from Aukus
Compared to the present it is a poignant historical example of how, to paraphrase Lord Palmerston, diplomatic and military alliances are never permanent, only interests. France, after all abandoned its western allies in 1966 when it withdrew at short notice from Nato’s integrated military command…..
The historically attuned Macron of all people should now put this snap diplomatic embarrassment behind him and work constructively with Aukus. But the new architecture of the Indo-Pacific will not be easy to negotiate.
What the three Anglosphere states in the Aukus pact have put together is a loose, flexible and nimble arrangement for managing Indo-Pacific security directly. This is something that is second nature to states of a culture that General de Gaulle always referred to as ‘Anglo-Saxon’.
It is just the kind of arrangement that is anathema to the formal, rational and legalistic method of the French and their cultural offshoot the EU, whose modus operandi was best demonstrated by the glacial formalism applied to the Brexit negotiations.
This clash of cultures – or cultures at cross purposes – was demonstrated prior to the First World War, when following the 1904 informal Entente Cordiale France was desperate for a formal binding written commitment from London to side with her in the event of a German attack. Britain would only agree to wait and see.
This was a problem France also experienced in the interwar years. Then to cap it all, Aukus is a club within another very exclusive culturally defined Anglosphere club that has existed since the Second World War and that has never had France as a member, the ‘Five Eyes’ (with New Zealand and Canada).
The second problem for Paris is that Aukus is not just a coalition of three. It will be the nexus of a much broader web drawing in other informal regional groupings with varied objectives from security to trade, such as the Quadrilateral Security Dialogue, or Quad, of US, Japan, India and Australia, or the 12 nation Trans Pacific Partnership trade agreement which includes the US (albeit withdrawn under Trump), Australia, Japan, Vietnam, Malaysia, Singapore, New Zealand and a pending UK membership.
France could now find herself outside these concentric circles……
Anyway, UK, Autralia and US are just the same country, everybody should know that.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...ded-from-aukus
The real reason France was excluded from Aukus
Compared to the present it is a poignant historical example of how, to paraphrase Lord Palmerston, diplomatic and military alliances are never permanent, only interests. France, after all abandoned its western allies in 1966 when it withdrew at short notice from Nato’s integrated military command…..
The historically attuned Macron of all people should now put this snap diplomatic embarrassment behind him and work constructively with Aukus. But the new architecture of the Indo-Pacific will not be easy to negotiate.
What the three Anglosphere states in the Aukus pact have put together is a loose, flexible and nimble arrangement for managing Indo-Pacific security directly. This is something that is second nature to states of a culture that General de Gaulle always referred to as ‘Anglo-Saxon’.
It is just the kind of arrangement that is anathema to the formal, rational and legalistic method of the French and their cultural offshoot the EU, whose modus operandi was best demonstrated by the glacial formalism applied to the Brexit negotiations.
This clash of cultures – or cultures at cross purposes – was demonstrated prior to the First World War, when following the 1904 informal Entente Cordiale France was desperate for a formal binding written commitment from London to side with her in the event of a German attack. Britain would only agree to wait and see.
This was a problem France also experienced in the interwar years. Then to cap it all, Aukus is a club within another very exclusive culturally defined Anglosphere club that has existed since the Second World War and that has never had France as a member, the ‘Five Eyes’ (with New Zealand and Canada).
The second problem for Paris is that Aukus is not just a coalition of three. It will be the nexus of a much broader web drawing in other informal regional groupings with varied objectives from security to trade, such as the Quadrilateral Security Dialogue, or Quad, of US, Japan, India and Australia, or the 12 nation Trans Pacific Partnership trade agreement which includes the US (albeit withdrawn under Trump), Australia, Japan, Vietnam, Malaysia, Singapore, New Zealand and a pending UK membership.
France could now find herself outside these concentric circles……
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
Reference the French military withdrawal from NATO in 1966 mentioned above (which lasted decades), I wonder if a repeat might be on the cards…..
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-submarine-row
Baptism of fire as Liz Truss heads to US amid submarine row
Peter Ricketts, a former permanent undersecretary at the Foreign Office and former UK ambassador to France, said the fallout from the affair would be extensive.
“This is much more than a diplomatic spat about an arms deal or recalling ambassadors. The French had invested in a strategic security pact with Australia that they described as structural. Australia has now trashed that,” he said…..
He added: “France sees it as a betrayal by the British and the US, who did this secretly with Australia for the last six months. French diplomats have told me that America lied about what they were doing and they will be releasing documents to show that America lied. They are asking themselves, ‘What is the point of being a Nato ally if this is how the US behaves?’”
“You will remember about 18 months ago, Emmanuel Macron described Nato as ‘brain dead’ and this will confirm that view. This has caused a huge rift down the middle of Nato.”
The former ambassador predicted France would now be looking to allies closer to home to beef up European security and would “pull the shutters down on Nato”.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...is-losing-nato
Biden is losing Nato
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-submarine-row
Baptism of fire as Liz Truss heads to US amid submarine row
Peter Ricketts, a former permanent undersecretary at the Foreign Office and former UK ambassador to France, said the fallout from the affair would be extensive.
“This is much more than a diplomatic spat about an arms deal or recalling ambassadors. The French had invested in a strategic security pact with Australia that they described as structural. Australia has now trashed that,” he said…..
He added: “France sees it as a betrayal by the British and the US, who did this secretly with Australia for the last six months. French diplomats have told me that America lied about what they were doing and they will be releasing documents to show that America lied. They are asking themselves, ‘What is the point of being a Nato ally if this is how the US behaves?’”
“You will remember about 18 months ago, Emmanuel Macron described Nato as ‘brain dead’ and this will confirm that view. This has caused a huge rift down the middle of Nato.”
The former ambassador predicted France would now be looking to allies closer to home to beef up European security and would “pull the shutters down on Nato”.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...is-losing-nato
Biden is losing Nato
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Recceguy….
Mers-el-kefir . Really ? And the alternative was ?
Dunkirk ? Really ? And the alternative was ?
The minute the Yanks offered the Virginia Class it was game over. It wasn’t on the table 5 years ago and the issue was forced by the colossal incompetence of the management of the French project.
Let me see , Virginia Class subs versus French alliance in the Pacific ?
Difficult choice. Not.
Remind me again why we went to war in 1914 ? Logic of that is a bit fuzzy now.
Mers-el-kefir . Really ? And the alternative was ?
Dunkirk ? Really ? And the alternative was ?
The minute the Yanks offered the Virginia Class it was game over. It wasn’t on the table 5 years ago and the issue was forced by the colossal incompetence of the management of the French project.
Let me see , Virginia Class subs versus French alliance in the Pacific ?
Difficult choice. Not.
Remind me again why we went to war in 1914 ? Logic of that is a bit fuzzy now.
The former ambassador predicted France would now be looking to allies closer to home to beef up European security and would “pull the shutters down on Nato”.
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Pulling down the shutters on NATO ?
NATO is the only thing that has kept the Russians out and the Germans and French from each other’s throats for the last 72 years.
To be replaced by what exactly ?
If you asked the Yanks to leave they would probably say yes.
NATO is the only thing that has kept the Russians out and the Germans and French from each other’s throats for the last 72 years.
To be replaced by what exactly ?
If you asked the Yanks to leave they would probably say yes.
Lets not wander into the NATO argument - it's covered elsewhere
As I've said I think from a military viewpoint the deal makes a great deal of sense - but can the RAN crew them, support them and afford the costs and time to build the local infrastructure?
They'd be advised to look at early USN SSN operations that had ship based support rather than try and duplicate somewhere like Coulport
As I've said I think from a military viewpoint the deal makes a great deal of sense - but can the RAN crew them, support them and afford the costs and time to build the local infrastructure?
They'd be advised to look at early USN SSN operations that had ship based support rather than try and duplicate somewhere like Coulport
Biden is losing Nato
Been saying for a while nato is a alliance whose best days and requirements are behind them
Betrayal treason and duplicity
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Let's be clear : Australia has no industrial basis - especially shipyards - no nuclear plants, and where are the Technical and Engineering Universities which make other countries so powerful ? it's a nation of farmers and miners, Their Navy has big recruiting problems because you get better salaries working in desert mines, than getting seasick under military discipline.
So those US subs - should they sail one day - will be crewed by USN sailors (probaby a 50/50 basis, and anyway it's the same people as I said before) And all the nuclear technology will be under US control.
They shouldn't underestimate France anger, for being treated like that.
It's not a story of losing a contract during the awarding process - it's years after, seeing your partner walking away, saying "it's my interest in doing so " (*) thus denegating any value to his signature and words.
What has been the interest in following US in Afghanistan, Syria, Ukraine ? France had no interest in those places, it was just to please Washington - losing quite a few soldiers in the process.
So in NATO, US will probably be replacing France by Latvia and Georgia, and France will get closer to Russia, as a significant part of the French population already wants. To stir up resentment against "anglo-saxons" across France, you don't need a lot - and the govenrment knows it, by the way, thus making retaliation easier to implement.
Dozens of military and big aerospace firms are already making business with Russia, and it's even the same with China (get informed, start with helicopters and navy guns) so let's just increase it, for fun now.
We were making fighter squadrons exchanges with the USSR during the Cold War, last time in 2012, stopped on US request - we can do it again (just an idea)
Anyway, it was pleasure to commit the best of our industry in making very nice blue water subs, designed to the specifications of the RAN (I remember walking along their base in Sydney, also another occasion watching their ships from the boat to Manly Beach) it would have been a great adventure, to the benefit of both sides. Because after years of rensetment (nuclear experiments from the 60s and the 70s in Polynesia) we had reached a more serene relationship - because we are somewhat partners in the Pacific, aren't we ? A couple of Rafale fighters came this summer from France mainland to Tahiti (probably to show the Navy, that the Air Force can do it quicker than the aircraft carrier...)
(*) like in the civilian world : "I have my family to support" which has been for years the excuse for the worst behaviours.
Rafales to Tahiti :
So those US subs - should they sail one day - will be crewed by USN sailors (probaby a 50/50 basis, and anyway it's the same people as I said before) And all the nuclear technology will be under US control.
They shouldn't underestimate France anger, for being treated like that.
It's not a story of losing a contract during the awarding process - it's years after, seeing your partner walking away, saying "it's my interest in doing so " (*) thus denegating any value to his signature and words.
What has been the interest in following US in Afghanistan, Syria, Ukraine ? France had no interest in those places, it was just to please Washington - losing quite a few soldiers in the process.
So in NATO, US will probably be replacing France by Latvia and Georgia, and France will get closer to Russia, as a significant part of the French population already wants. To stir up resentment against "anglo-saxons" across France, you don't need a lot - and the govenrment knows it, by the way, thus making retaliation easier to implement.
Dozens of military and big aerospace firms are already making business with Russia, and it's even the same with China (get informed, start with helicopters and navy guns) so let's just increase it, for fun now.
We were making fighter squadrons exchanges with the USSR during the Cold War, last time in 2012, stopped on US request - we can do it again (just an idea)
Anyway, it was pleasure to commit the best of our industry in making very nice blue water subs, designed to the specifications of the RAN (I remember walking along their base in Sydney, also another occasion watching their ships from the boat to Manly Beach) it would have been a great adventure, to the benefit of both sides. Because after years of rensetment (nuclear experiments from the 60s and the 70s in Polynesia) we had reached a more serene relationship - because we are somewhat partners in the Pacific, aren't we ? A couple of Rafale fighters came this summer from France mainland to Tahiti (probably to show the Navy, that the Air Force can do it quicker than the aircraft carrier...)
(*) like in the civilian world : "I have my family to support" which has been for years the excuse for the worst behaviours.
Rafales to Tahiti :
Last edited by recceguy; 19th Sep 2021 at 10:00. Reason: spelling !
Agree on the assessment of Australia as a nation of miners and farmers.
That's why it's such a pity that a domestic nuclear industry is being ruled out.
Imagine the wonderful effects on the Australian STEM curricula, schools, polytechnics and universities if there was a clear career path for nuclear engineering.
Girls and boys - nuclear science is a genuine option for you.
Do anything from design the next climate change defeating micro-reactor to contributing to national defence.
A pipe dream.
Suggestions tonight by Dutton that leasing boats is initially an option.
I reckon that's a hint they may go US.
Not so sure about the 50 per cent USN sailors.
Virginia or Astute, the reactor is essentially a sealed unit that runs for the life of the sub.
You need some pointy headed people behind the classified door to the reactor room - but other than that - logic would suggest a sub is a sub - surely?
It drives the same way, fights the same way.
A nuclear power source just gives you a lot more options and flexibility.
That's why it's such a pity that a domestic nuclear industry is being ruled out.
Imagine the wonderful effects on the Australian STEM curricula, schools, polytechnics and universities if there was a clear career path for nuclear engineering.
Girls and boys - nuclear science is a genuine option for you.
Do anything from design the next climate change defeating micro-reactor to contributing to national defence.
A pipe dream.
Suggestions tonight by Dutton that leasing boats is initially an option.
I reckon that's a hint they may go US.
Not so sure about the 50 per cent USN sailors.
Virginia or Astute, the reactor is essentially a sealed unit that runs for the life of the sub.
You need some pointy headed people behind the classified door to the reactor room - but other than that - logic would suggest a sub is a sub - surely?
It drives the same way, fights the same way.
A nuclear power source just gives you a lot more options and flexibility.
