AUKUS
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,646
Likes: 766
From: Australia
Before the French get too righteous over Australia changing its mind they might want to reflect on what they did to Israel after the Six Day war and why Australia's Mirages did not see active service in Vietnam. The Canberra did even though the UK was not involved in the war.
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 559
Likes: 86
From: Beyond the M25
Several years ago I asked here why Australia was not acquiring nuclear boats from the US - and was roundly mocked by many on the forum who thought they knew better.
Well, time seems to be proving me right.
Well, time seems to be proving me right.
Joined: Oct 2018
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 12,245
Likes: 1,657
From: Ferrara
"Anyone fool enough to trust the UK government, at least the present one, is likely to be be disappointed."
Come on - this is a US led deal - the Brits are tagging along as they have experience of low-rate production in the back of beyond
Come on - this is a US led deal - the Brits are tagging along as they have experience of low-rate production in the back of beyond
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
From: What day is it?
Ok, let's paint a scenario shall we?
RAN takes out a Chinese destroyer with one of these you bewt new subs.
30 minutes later RAAF Tindal is a smoking hole in the ground.
If you are going to play with the big boys, carry a bigger stick. This is just embarrassing.
RAN takes out a Chinese destroyer with one of these you bewt new subs.
30 minutes later RAAF Tindal is a smoking hole in the ground.
If you are going to play with the big boys, carry a bigger stick. This is just embarrassing.
Oh, and I don’t support this development.
Thread Starter
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Joined: Jul 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 24,636
Likes: 7,338
From: Peripatetic
Not sure why the French are complaining, haven't they been noticed that their Foreign policy over China is diametrically opposed to that of the USA and Australia?
The USA, especially, Biden, has been urging the EU to get tough on China for several years but getting nowhere. On the contrary German and France has been urging the EU to see itself as a "third power bloc" between the USA and China with an especial emphasis on expanding trade relations.
The question for not only the USA but especially Australia therefore is how would France react to pressure from China over crises in the pacific and Asian regions - could they depend on French standing with them or not? That would be especially critical concerning nuclear submarines with reactors needing regular refuelling in France and using French weapons.
The French talk about trust - the fact is that, based on history and their proclaimed policy on China - they aren't seen as being trustworthy enough.
The USA, especially, Biden, has been urging the EU to get tough on China for several years but getting nowhere. On the contrary German and France has been urging the EU to see itself as a "third power bloc" between the USA and China with an especial emphasis on expanding trade relations.
The question for not only the USA but especially Australia therefore is how would France react to pressure from China over crises in the pacific and Asian regions - could they depend on French standing with them or not? That would be especially critical concerning nuclear submarines with reactors needing regular refuelling in France and using French weapons.
The French talk about trust - the fact is that, based on history and their proclaimed policy on China - they aren't seen as being trustworthy enough.
Joined: Apr 2008
Aviation Qualifications: SLF
Posts: 1,118
Likes: 228
From: troposphere
Operation Noa
The Cherbourg Project (or Boats of Cherbourg) was an Israeli military operation that took place on 24 December 1969 and involved the escape of five remaining armed Sa'ar 3 class boats from the French port of Cherbourg (Cherbourg-Octeville since 2000, Cherbourg-en-Cotentin since 2016). The boats had been paid for by the Israeli government but had not been delivered due to the French arms embargo in 1969. The whole operation was planned by the Israeli Navy, and was codenamed Operation Noa, after the daughter of Captain Binyamin "Bini" Telem.[1]
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,646
Likes: 766
From: Australia
There were the boats and then there were the 50 Mirage 5s that were paid for and France blocked delivery of. Mmm what to do? In very Israeli fashion they worked out how to steal the plans from the Swiss and manufacture their own. Thus the Kfir was born.
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 408
Likes: 1
From: Bonvoy Marriott
While I am certainly not in the “Pro-China camp” I fail to see the gain that Australia has in AUKUS.
The hardest we can hit China is by imposing trade restrictions. Presence is the South China Sea is a good idea but for that you don’t need AUKUS. “New World Order”? Its the Old World Order plus the UK and Australia.
The hardest we can hit China is by imposing trade restrictions. Presence is the South China Sea is a good idea but for that you don’t need AUKUS. “New World Order”? Its the Old World Order plus the UK and Australia.
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 391
Likes: 105
From: Not a Pilot
While I am certainly not in the “Pro-China camp” I fail to see the gain that Australia has in AUKUS.
The hardest we can hit China is by imposing trade restrictions. Presence is the South China Sea is a good idea but for that you don’t need AUKUS. “New World Order”? Its the Old World Order plus the UK and Australia.
The hardest we can hit China is by imposing trade restrictions. Presence is the South China Sea is a good idea but for that you don’t need AUKUS. “New World Order”? Its the Old World Order plus the UK and Australia.
Paxing All Over The World
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,841
Likes: 328
From: Hertfordshire, UK.
The failure of Diplomatic conversation is massive. Only the 'Old World Order' could think that sending gunboats to spy on one of your biggest trading partners will work out in your favour! China is already the de facto global superpower and they have Russia as best friends. You can trade with them but don't try and argue.
Of course, the USA Military Industrial Complex has to make it's profits somehow!
Of course, the USA Military Industrial Complex has to make it's profits somehow!
Joined: Apr 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 4,921
Likes: 611
From: surfing, watching for sharks
The failure of Diplomatic conversation is massive. Only the 'Old World Order' could think that sending gunboats to spy on one of your biggest trading partners will work out in your favour! China is already the de facto global superpower and they have Russia as best friends. You can trade with them but don't try and argue.
Of course, the USA Military Industrial Complex has to make it's profits somehow!
Of course, the USA Military Industrial Complex has to make it's profits somehow!
As far as Russia being a best friend, not so sure about your analysis.
Paxing All Over The World
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,841
Likes: 328
From: Hertfordshire, UK.
If you do not like what China does - then don't trade with it. Manufacture all your stuff in your own country. History tells us that they want to win at all costs. Since they do not have to consider the costs, it will be expensive. Russia will be friends with anyone - if they acknowledge that Russia is superior to all. Unfortunately, the Chinese think they are superior to all. More unfortunately, the USA think they are superior ... and so does every other tribe on the planet.
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 259
Likes: 0
From: The blasted heath
Going further into the back of beyond by the minute.
When (and not if) Scotland becomes independent then the bases and facilities there may have to move.
I think this is the only reason Plymouth still remains open.
All agreements are based on a good deal of trust and the present cabal of shysters in Westminster has proven, time and time again, that they cannot be trusted.
Fair warning for anyone thinking of any kind of agreement.
Joined: Apr 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 4,921
Likes: 611
From: surfing, watching for sharks
If you do not like what China does - then don't trade with it. Manufacture all your stuff in your own country. History tells us that they want to win at all costs. Since they do not have to consider the costs, it will be expensive. Russia will be friends with anyone - if they acknowledge that Russia is superior to all. Unfortunately, the Chinese think they are superior to all. More unfortunately, the USA think they are superior ... and so does every other tribe on the planet.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,308
Likes: 160
From: Grid ref confused
I
Going further into the back of beyond by the minute.
When (and not if) Scotland becomes independent then the bases and facilities there may have to move.
I think this is the only reason Plymouth still remains open.
All agreements are based on a good deal of trust and the present cabal of shysters in Westminster has proven, time and time again, that they cannot be trusted.
Fair warning for anyone thinking of any kind of agreement.
Going further into the back of beyond by the minute.
When (and not if) Scotland becomes independent then the bases and facilities there may have to move.
I think this is the only reason Plymouth still remains open.
All agreements are based on a good deal of trust and the present cabal of shysters in Westminster has proven, time and time again, that they cannot be trusted.
Fair warning for anyone thinking of any kind of agreement.
Joined: Apr 2010
Aviation Qualifications: Military (Retired)
Posts: 958
Likes: 1,239
From: Herefordshire
I
Going further into the back of beyond by the minute.
When (and not if) Scotland becomes independent then the bases and facilities there may have to move.
I think this is the only reason Plymouth still remains open.
All agreements are based on a good deal of trust and the present cabal of shysters in Westminster has proven, time and time again, that they cannot be trusted.
Fair warning for anyone thinking of any kind of agreement.
Going further into the back of beyond by the minute.
When (and not if) Scotland becomes independent then the bases and facilities there may have to move.
I think this is the only reason Plymouth still remains open.
All agreements are based on a good deal of trust and the present cabal of shysters in Westminster has proven, time and time again, that they cannot be trusted.
Fair warning for anyone thinking of any kind of agreement.
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 391
Likes: 105
From: Not a Pilot
Ok, let's paint a scenario shall we?
RAN takes out a Chinese destroyer with one of these you bewt new subs.
30 minutes later RAAF Tindal is a smoking hole in the ground.
If you are going to play with the big boys, carry a bigger stick. This is just embarrassing.
RAN takes out a Chinese destroyer with one of these you bewt new subs.
30 minutes later RAAF Tindal is a smoking hole in the ground.
If you are going to play with the big boys, carry a bigger stick. This is just embarrassing.
Joined: Jun 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 2,238
Likes: 218
From: Eden Valley
On May 31, the Royal Malaysian Air Force said fighter jets had been scrambled after 16 Chinese military aircraft approached Malaysia’s coastline in Sarawak, located on the island of Borneo.
The aircraft, which included a large Xian Y-20 military transporter, did not enter Malaysia’s territorial airspace. But China got pretty close, crossing into what Kuala Lumpur refers to as the Malaysia Maritime Zone (MMZ) where aircraft movements are monitored and in some cases foreign planes asked to identify themselves.
The aircraft, which included a large Xian Y-20 military transporter, did not enter Malaysia’s territorial airspace. But China got pretty close, crossing into what Kuala Lumpur refers to as the Malaysia Maritime Zone (MMZ) where aircraft movements are monitored and in some cases foreign planes asked to identify themselves.
AUKUS isn't just about submarines. Australia seeks to build weapons under license such as the Tomahawk missile and connecting this production directly into logistic channels of the US & UK.
AUKUS is a significant strategic shift, shoring up a traditional alliance in the face of an aggressive China, committing the UK and the US to the region with more military rotations in Australia in addition to technology transfers. It will have ramifications for other nations and strengthen regional cooperation. Japan and India for example.The French reaction is problematic, bordering on a tantrum, considering their vested interests in the French Pacific. China's reaction is as expected at the moment though interesting where it goes? A significant alliance of this sort would not have been expected and if it motivation for a more pragmatic and cooperative response from smaller regional players, the CCP will need to go back to the drawing board.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,515
Likes: 151
From: A better place.
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,618
Likes: 205
From: aus
When it comes to superpowers, everyone has to pick side. France wants the EU to be a super power. So guess the UK and Australia have already picked their sides
French defence minster Bruno Le Maire said at a business congress near Lake Como in Italy Saturday, Reuters reports. "Europe has to become the number three super-power besides China and the United States. Let's open our eyes, we're facing threats and we cannot rely anymore on the protection of the United States", he said.
***edit*** someone corrected it apparently hes the economy and finance minister not defence minister
French defence minster Bruno Le Maire said at a business congress near Lake Como in Italy Saturday, Reuters reports. "Europe has to become the number three super-power besides China and the United States. Let's open our eyes, we're facing threats and we cannot rely anymore on the protection of the United States", he said.
***edit*** someone corrected it apparently hes the economy and finance minister not defence minister
Last edited by rattman; 19th September 2021 at 02:14.