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AUKUS

Old 18th Sep 2021, 08:24
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Before the French get too righteous over Australia changing its mind they might want to reflect on what they did to Israel after the Six Day war and why Australia's Mirages did not see active service in Vietnam. The Canberra did even though the UK was not involved in the war.
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Old 18th Sep 2021, 08:25
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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Several years ago I asked here why Australia was not acquiring nuclear boats from the US - and was roundly mocked by many on the forum who thought they knew better.
Well, time seems to be proving me right.
Lol, nursing a grudge much tartare? Got to let it go, man!
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Old 18th Sep 2021, 08:34
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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"Anyone fool enough to trust the UK government, at least the present one, is likely to be be disappointed."

Come on - this is a US led deal - the Brits are tagging along as they have experience of low-rate production in the back of beyond
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Old 18th Sep 2021, 08:37
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SevenTwentySeven View Post
Ok, let's paint a scenario shall we?

RAN takes out a Chinese destroyer with one of these you bewt new subs.

30 minutes later RAAF Tindal is a smoking hole in the ground.

If you are going to play with the big boys, carry a bigger stick. This is just embarrassing.
Again, these are SSNs, there’s nothing embarrassing about them. You clearly have zero understanding of naval warfare. Your scenario makes no sense as it would be followed by a US nuclear strike on China. That’s the point of an alliance. Anyway, no-one launches a nuclear strike just because a destroyer gets sunk. Arguing for an independent Australian strategic nuclear deterrent is a different subject. Good luck with that.

Oh, and I don’t support this development.
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Old 18th Sep 2021, 09:18
  #125 (permalink)  
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Not sure why the French are complaining, haven't they been noticed that their Foreign policy over China is diametrically opposed to that of the USA and Australia?

The USA, especially, Biden, has been urging the EU to get tough on China for several years but getting nowhere. On the contrary German and France has been urging the EU to see itself as a "third power bloc" between the USA and China with an especial emphasis on expanding trade relations.

The question for not only the USA but especially Australia therefore is how would France react to pressure from China over crises in the pacific and Asian regions - could they depend on French standing with them or not? That would be especially critical concerning nuclear submarines with reactors needing regular refuelling in France and using French weapons.

The French talk about trust - the fact is that, based on history and their proclaimed policy on China - they aren't seen as being trustworthy enough.
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Old 18th Sep 2021, 09:40
  #126 (permalink)  
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Operation Noa


The Cherbourg Project (or Boats of Cherbourg) was an Israeli military operation that took place on 24 December 1969 and involved the escape of five remaining armed Sa'ar 3 class boats from the French port of Cherbourg (Cherbourg-Octeville since 2000, Cherbourg-en-Cotentin since 2016). The boats had been paid for by the Israeli government but had not been delivered due to the French arms embargo in 1969. The whole operation was planned by the Israeli Navy, and was codenamed Operation Noa, after the daughter of Captain Binyamin "Bini" Telem.[1]
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Old 18th Sep 2021, 09:49
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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There were the boats and then there were the 50 Mirage 5s that were paid for and France blocked delivery of. Mmm what to do? In very Israeli fashion they worked out how to steal the plans from the Swiss and manufacture their own. Thus the Kfir was born.
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Old 18th Sep 2021, 11:06
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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While I am certainly not in the “Pro-China camp” I fail to see the gain that Australia has in AUKUS.

The hardest we can hit China is by imposing trade restrictions. Presence is the South China Sea is a good idea but for that you don’t need AUKUS. “New World Order”? Its the Old World Order plus the UK and Australia.
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Old 18th Sep 2021, 13:23
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SaulGoodman View Post
While I am certainly not in the “Pro-China camp” I fail to see the gain that Australia has in AUKUS.

The hardest we can hit China is by imposing trade restrictions. Presence is the South China Sea is a good idea but for that you don’t need AUKUS. “New World Order”? Its the Old World Order plus the UK and Australia.
China is Australia's major trading partner. It's complicated.
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Old 18th Sep 2021, 15:54
  #130 (permalink)  
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The failure of Diplomatic conversation is massive. Only the 'Old World Order' could think that sending gunboats to spy on one of your biggest trading partners will work out in your favour! China is already the de facto global superpower and they have Russia as best friends. You can trade with them but don't try and argue.

Of course, the USA Military Industrial Complex has to make it's profits somehow!
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Old 18th Sep 2021, 17:04
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PAXboy View Post
The failure of Diplomatic conversation is massive. Only the 'Old World Order' could think that sending gunboats to spy on one of your biggest trading partners will work out in your favour! China is already the de facto global superpower and they have Russia as best friends. You can trade with them but don't try and argue.

Of course, the USA Military Industrial Complex has to make it's profits somehow!
Now there’s the attitude the Chinese want, trade with us but otherwise remain subservient.

As far as Russia being a best friend, not so sure about your analysis.
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Old 18th Sep 2021, 17:32
  #132 (permalink)  
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If you do not like what China does - then don't trade with it. Manufacture all your stuff in your own country. History tells us that they want to win at all costs. Since they do not have to consider the costs, it will be expensive. Russia will be friends with anyone - if they acknowledge that Russia is superior to all. Unfortunately, the Chinese think they are superior to all. More unfortunately, the USA think they are superior ... and so does every other tribe on the planet.
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Old 18th Sep 2021, 18:33
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
"Anyone fool enough to trust the UK government, at least the present one, is likely to be be disappointed."

Come on - this is a US led deal - the Brits are tagging along as they have experience of low-rate production in the back of beyond
I

Going further into the back of beyond by the minute.
When (and not if) Scotland becomes independent then the bases and facilities there may have to move.
I think this is the only reason Plymouth still remains open.
All agreements are based on a good deal of trust and the present cabal of shysters in Westminster has proven, time and time again, that they cannot be trusted.
Fair warning for anyone thinking of any kind of agreement.


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Old 18th Sep 2021, 21:14
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PAXboy View Post
If you do not like what China does - then don't trade with it. Manufacture all your stuff in your own country. History tells us that they want to win at all costs. Since they do not have to consider the costs, it will be expensive. Russia will be friends with anyone - if they acknowledge that Russia is superior to all. Unfortunately, the Chinese think they are superior to all. More unfortunately, the USA think they are superior ... and so does every other tribe on the planet.
Do you thinks it’s that simple, don’t trade with someone and the threat is mitigated?

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Old 18th Sep 2021, 21:59
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gcal View Post
I

Going further into the back of beyond by the minute.
When (and not if) Scotland becomes independent then the bases and facilities there may have to move.
I think this is the only reason Plymouth still remains open.
All agreements are based on a good deal of trust and the present cabal of shysters in Westminster has proven, time and time again, that they cannot be trusted.
Fair warning for anyone thinking of any kind of agreement.
Gcal, have you been speaking to the three hags at the blasted heath of Auldearn or the living one in Holyrood? Either way, all four harridans have been misleading you. Support for Independence is weakening rapidly, and you can't move the bases, they are physically restrained within Scotland. The SNP are the worst, lying cabal of shysters in British politics.
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Old 18th Sep 2021, 22:40
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gcal View Post
I

Going further into the back of beyond by the minute.
When (and not if) Scotland becomes independent then the bases and facilities there may have to move.
I think this is the only reason Plymouth still remains open.
All agreements are based on a good deal of trust and the present cabal of shysters in Westminster has proven, time and time again, that they cannot be trusted.
Fair warning for anyone thinking of any kind of agreement.
Have you asked the Scots who work at the bases and in the many other local businesses that depend on them if they're happy for their livelihoods to be sacrificed on the altar of your Nationalist wet dream? They may well think that it's you and your ilk who can't be trusted.
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Old 19th Sep 2021, 00:31
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SevenTwentySeven View Post
Ok, let's paint a scenario shall we?

RAN takes out a Chinese destroyer with one of these you bewt new subs.

30 minutes later RAAF Tindal is a smoking hole in the ground.

If you are going to play with the big boys, carry a bigger stick. This is just embarrassing.
Peter Hatcher was on Insiders claiming that the new submarines will be used to plug the way from the China Sea to the rest of the world. Is he insane? How can AUKUS submarines stop Chinese naval vessels sailing anywhere they want. AUKUS vessels are happily sailing the South China Sea right now and China can't stop them.
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Old 19th Sep 2021, 01:10
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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On May 31, the Royal Malaysian Air Force said fighter jets had been scrambled after 16 Chinese military aircraft approached Malaysia’s coastline in Sarawak, located on the island of Borneo.

The aircraft, which included a large Xian Y-20 military transporter, did not enter Malaysia’s territorial airspace. But China got pretty close, crossing into what Kuala Lumpur refers to as the Malaysia Maritime Zone (MMZ) where aircraft movements are monitored and in some cases foreign planes asked to identify themselves.
The PLA's aggressive posture is extending beyond Taiwan and North East Asia. This recent event a good example, perhaps putting into context the challenges of an aggressive China and out of date bilateral arrangements such as the Five Power Defence Arrangements (FPDA). China's rise is becoming aggressive and within the region few countries are in a position to resist. AUKUS is a deliberate and defensive counter to China's aggressive rise. Australia is not seeking to fight China alone and any confrontation with Australia will most likely involve the US and perhaps now the UK. The scenario of Tindal being "bombed" seems ludicrous when within the next few years, it won't be far away from being a joint facility supporting USAF bomber operations.

AUKUS isn't just about submarines. Australia seeks to build weapons under license such as the Tomahawk missile and connecting this production directly into logistic channels of the US & UK.

AUKUS is a significant strategic shift, shoring up a traditional alliance in the face of an aggressive China, committing the UK and the US to the region with more military rotations in Australia in addition to technology transfers. It will have ramifications for other nations and strengthen regional cooperation. Japan and India for example.The French reaction is problematic, bordering on a tantrum, considering their vested interests in the French Pacific. China's reaction is as expected at the moment though interesting where it goes? A significant alliance of this sort would not have been expected and if it motivation for a more pragmatic and cooperative response from smaller regional players, the CCP will need to go back to the drawing board.
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Old 19th Sep 2021, 01:13
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mil-26Man View Post
Lol, nursing a grudge much tartare? Got to let it go, man!
Nah, not at all old son.
Just proving that the loudest and most dismissive voices more often than not don't know what they're talking about!
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Old 19th Sep 2021, 01:43
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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When it comes to superpowers, everyone has to pick side. France wants the EU to be a super power. So guess the UK and Australia have already picked their sides

French defence minster Bruno Le Maire said at a business congress near Lake Como in Italy Saturday, Reuters reports. "Europe has to become the number three super-power besides China and the United States. Let's open our eyes, we're facing threats and we cannot rely anymore on the protection of the United States", he said.


***edit*** someone corrected it apparently hes the economy and finance minister not defence minister

Last edited by rattman; 19th Sep 2021 at 03:14.
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