AUKUS

[Video Mixdown]

Originally Posted by Asturias56

the NZ govt takes in around NZ 134 Bn a year = US$ 80Bn approx - I don' think that's enough to buy and operate an SSN - the Australians are looking at around $5-6 Bn a year

The submarines grab the headlines, but AUKUS is about much more than just them. If NZ really wants in it should be welcomed for the contribution it can make.
​​​​​

[golder]

Originally Posted by kaikohe76

Now at long last, we in New Zealand hopefully have a government, that will support & invest in the military. Also we need to join up with AKUS as soon as possible, rather than burying our heads in the sand, as we did under the previous administration.

Further to what video mixdown said. It won't be a Pillar I nuke sub. Pillar II is actually a larger program and is talked about. They may split it up and allow others to join subsections.
https://breakingdefense.com/2023/10/...ives-to-power/

[Asturias56]

thinking about it the RNZN could have some of their crews on the Aussie and UK boats operating in the area. That would help both the other navies with crewing issues (which they both have ) and also maybe spark more interest in recruitment & retention for the NZ navy - beats sitting on a small patrol boat

[rattman]

Originally Posted by golder

Further to what video mixdown said. It won't be a Pillar I nuke sub. Pillar II is actually a larger program and is talked about. They may split it up and allow others to join subsections.
https://breakingdefense.com/2023/10/...ives-to-power/

Correct pillar 1 is the SSN, pillar 2 is a variety of smaller programs. Like the one they announced a few days ago. Space based radars, seem to be intitally for replacement of E-8 Jstars but with E-3/E-7 awacs eventually. Believe HACM (Hypersonic airbreathing cruise missile)

Pillar 2. Cyber warfare, hypersonics, AI, Qantum and undersea warfare are all generic terms but slowly being fleshed

[Asturias56]

none of those look very cheap......................

[rattman]

Originally Posted by Asturias56

thinking about it the RNZN could have some of their crews on the Aussie and UK boats operating in the area. That would help both the other navies with crewing issues (which they both have ) and also maybe spark more interest in recruitment & retention for the NZ navy - beats sitting on a small patrol boat

If you are talking surface ships possibly. We already lead a substantial part of the army due to a plan anzac, could see that being expanded to the other services

Originally Posted by Asturias56

none of those look very cheap......................

Some are a lot of money but others are skill based. Cyber warfare and defence is a more skill based system. Kiwis can do a lot with a bit. Rocket Labs is a prime example, small orbital rocket, which AUS has never done

[ORAC]

If you think preemptive defence is expensive what till you see what having to fight a war costs.

[Video Mixdown]

Elsewhere golder has posted about using AI with UK, US & Australian P-8A’s and other surveillance systems to track hostile submarines. I’d have thought the NZ P-8A’s would fit right in.

[ResBunny]

…Rocket Labs is a prime example, small orbital rocket, which AUS has never done

29 Nov 1967; Australia launched WRESAT and became 7th nation in space.

Although it’s all been pretty much backwards since then.

[Lonewolf_50]

Originally Posted by kaikohe76

Now at long last, we in New Zealand hopefully have a government, that will support & invest in the military.
Also we need to join up with AKUS as soon as possible, rather than burying our heads in the sand, as we did under the previous administration.

It would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath.

Originally Posted by Asturias56

none of those look very cheap......................

Welcome to 21st Century Warfare.

[Asturias56]

I'm beginning to think Augustine was optimistic when he had the US down to one fighter aircraft by 2054

[golder]

https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/naval/13276-christmas-gift-us-congress-green-lights-submarine-sale-to-australia

An early Christmas gift by the US Congress, as members voted to allow the sale of three Viriginia Class submarines to Australia in the 2030s.

The agreement, added to the US Congress’s National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2024, would allow transfer of the nuclear-powered conventionally armed submarines to Australia after the bill is enacted.

Deputy PM and Minister for Defence Marles reportedly welcomed the news of the AUKUS breakthrough after months of glacial-speed progress in the US.

[rattman]

Been confirmed that SSN-AUKUS will have AN/BYG-1 combat systems and in the previous announcement that RN/RAN will both have same combat systems. Mean the RN will be moving away from the BAE CCS, so leaves the question, is dreadnought getting the BAE or AN/BYG-1

[Going Boeing]

I suspect that the Dreadnought design is too advanced to change the combat system which is a shame as the RN will be supporting two different systems for quite some time. If it’s not too late to fit the AN/BYG-1 to the Dreadnought class, there may be an additional capability available to them as the Ohio SSGN’s use the system to launch large numbers of Tomahawk missiles from the tubes previously housing ballistic missiles - it would potentially add a multi role capability to the RN CASD boats. This would obviously only be considered at a time when the strategic threat was low.

It appears that the agreement involves the upgraded AN/BYG-1 system having the British weapons integrated so that the RN can continue to use their preferred weapons. Having 3 countries using the same system will assist with keeping the development & training costs down.

The passing of the US legislation is a very significant step in this process and it appears to have a lot of bipartisan support.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/i...9edbbec8b212f7

[rattman]

Originally Posted by Going Boeing

I suspect that the Dreadnought design is too advanced to change the combat system which is a shame as the RN will be supporting two different systems for quite some time. If it’s not too late to fit the AN/BYG-1 to the Dreadnought class,

They will be regardless of the a dreadnought due to astute. But its not confirmed or denied about which combat system it uses. I think it will get the american system, dont think its going to be that big of an issue to change it. But ultimately time will tell.

Also note the 2024 defence aquisitions bill has passed both houses. Including the bit about AUKUS, now permits sale of up to 3 Virginia SSN's to Australia

[Asturias56]

Having set a precedent on Sales Authority it occurred to me that should the pips squeak on a future UK budget the RN could now buy American SSN's.................... shades of the F-111 perhaps..............

[Video Mixdown]

Originally Posted by Asturias56

Having set a precedent on Sales Authority it occurred to me that should the pips squeak on a future UK budget the RN could now buy American SSN's.................... shades of the F-111 perhaps..............

Only in your imagination.

[Asturias56]

Originally Posted by Video Mixdown

Only in your imagination.

Possibly - but I remember what a Labour Govt did way back.

Whoever gets in next year will be looking to fix the national budget - a lot of cuts will be necessary. They could finish the SSBN's and then just say we can avoid what will be a horrendously expensive SSN replacement programme - which is CERTAIN to go over budget and spend the money on health care, schooling etc etc

Back in the 60's no-one thought we could cancel TSR-2, or the big carriers, or East of Suez................... and the financial situation wasn't as bad as it is right now.

[rattman]

Originally Posted by Asturias56

Having set a precedent on Sales Authority it occurred to me that should the pips squeak on a future UK budget the RN could now buy American SSN's.................... shades of the F-111 perhaps..............

Never happen unless its virginias built in the UK. This was actually a somewhat close to not happening, US production is so limited even 3 extra virginias was considered to much of a risk by some decision makers. This pretty much reads as a one off

[ORAC]

One reason to sign multinational treaties to build aircraft - such as Tornado, Typhoon and Tempest - is that they make it incredibly hard to cancel politically, and unlikely to be financially worthwhile once penal clauses due to the cost the remaining partners is taken into account.

The same holds true for SSN-AUKUS, except the penalty clauses and costs would be far higher due to the nuclear element….