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AUKUS

Old 24th Sep 2021, 10:24
  #341 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JustinHeywood
Very true, but not too many realistic AUKUS candidates in our corner of the Pacific though. Ultimately it is surely about building real military capacity down here, not another feel-good, all-inclusive but toothless confederation. Realpolitik.
I personally find it a bit sad that New Zealand seems to have drifted so far away - they have been a valued and trusted ally for so long. In the past it would have been a given that NZ would be in that acronym somewhere. How do most Australians feel about it?
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Old 24th Sep 2021, 10:49
  #342 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JustinHeywood
Very true, but not too many realistic AUKUS candidates in our corner of the Pacific though. Ultimately it is surely about building real military capacity down here, not another feel-good, all-inclusive but toothless confederation. Realpolitik.
Personally I'm wondering why South Korea and Japan are not part of that agreement. Both are significantly investing in their Military. Both are sharing Western values to quite some extent. Both have relevant potential for conflict with China.
Are the US concerned that this might be considered too much of an aggression by China?
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Old 24th Sep 2021, 10:56
  #343 (permalink)  
 
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How do most Australians feel about it?
Don't care, half of NZ live here and hate Australia, and make it known. Kinda like certain nationalities in the UK who are happy to live there but hate it and all that it stands for...
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Old 24th Sep 2021, 11:11
  #344 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Grumpy retiree
France is pissed off because their long term positioning in the Pacific has been thwarted.
The thing that I don't get is how a commercial contract cancellation impacts upon Frances ability & desire to be a part of protecting their Pacific 'assets'. Are they withdrawing from the Pacific now? It's almost like they've cried so much to the EU that they can't back down anymore.
Was being part of a coalition standing up to China conditional on this deal? Does that make them Mercenaries? Obvious answers to both of those but, whilst we know Oz is not a big player in Military expenditure (big for us though), does the EU seriously want to undermine the fact that a lot of our kit is from Europe already?
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Old 24th Sep 2021, 11:17
  #345 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by henra
Personally I'm wondering why South Korea and Japan are not part of that agreement. Both are significantly investing in their Military. Both are sharing Western values to quite some extent. Both have relevant potential for conflict with China.
Are the US concerned that this might be considered too much of an aggression by China?
This whole thing was pretty rushed and its why it turned into a cluster, betting there is some behind the scenes talks imagine with india, japan, singapore and korea to see if they are interested in either this or an expansion to quad
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Old 24th Sep 2021, 11:18
  #346 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Video Mixdown
I personally find it a bit sad that New Zealand seems to have drifted….How do most Australians feel about it?


That’s how ’The Australian’ feels about it. Personally I think NZ is small enough to carry on without having to make hard choices like the bigger players.


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Old 24th Sep 2021, 11:43
  #347 (permalink)  
 
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Poor diplomacy

Rare poster but since I'm texting from Dublin and aware of what happens to the grass when elephants fight, does anyone have insight as to why the diplomacy was so unnecessarily bad?
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Old 24th Sep 2021, 12:01
  #348 (permalink)  
 
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Lets see, how could the worst program work?....in the name of maximum equality share for the US and UK, and local jobs for AUS, US systems and weapons suite (or maybe even the reactor) is shoehorned into an Astute, BAE is hired as the integrator, and rips out all the perfectly good US gear and tries to splice it to the UK black boxes, and the whole thing is assembled by Australian pipe fitters and welders who are underexperienced with the specialized metals that go into sub work....ooh and several late changes in specs for new technologies and mission creep....
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Old 24th Sep 2021, 12:06
  #349 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sandiego89
Lets see, how could the worst program work?....in the name of maximum equality share for the US and UK, and local jobs for AUS, US systems and weapons suite (or maybe even the reactor) is shoehorned into an Astute, BAE is hired as the integrator, and rips out all the perfectly good US gear and tries to splice it to the UK black boxes, and the whole thing is assembled by Australian pipe fitters and welders who are underexperienced with the specialized metals that go into sub work....ooh and several late changes in specs for new technologies and mission creep....
I hope that prediction doesn’t turn into a best case scenario!
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Old 24th Sep 2021, 12:27
  #350 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sandiego89
Lets see, how could the worst program work?....in the name of maximum equality share for the US and UK, and local jobs for AUS, US systems and weapons suite (or maybe even the reactor) is shoehorned into an Astute, BAE is hired as the integrator, and rips out all the perfectly good US gear and tries to splice it to the UK black boxes, and the whole thing is assembled by Australian pipe fitters and welders who are underexperienced with the specialized metals that go into sub work....ooh and several late changes in specs for new technologies and mission creep....
Well, they could always let Lucas be in charge of the electrics.
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Old 24th Sep 2021, 12:45
  #351 (permalink)  
 
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Arrow

Originally Posted by ORAC
WASHINGTON — The U.S. Navy’s chief of naval operations .[..]... from a defense industrial base in Australia, to a community inside the Australian Navy that’s able to man, train, and equip those submarines, to sustain them....
[..]
“This is a very long-term effort that’ll be decades, I think, before a submarine goes in the water ……
Americans are quite realistic in pointing out the problems..... good to read that.

Some Aussies seem to regret that their workshare in the program with the French went to 90 % (?) to 70 then 60% (which is my knowledge)
Delays and cost-increase in the contract were coming exactly from that specific requirement, quite unrealistic because of the "lack of expertise" down South . It's a little bit similar to those people considering themselves " an aeronautical nation" .. yes, they share a common laguage with Brits and Yanks, theyr have airlines pilots scattered all around Asia and Middle-East, usually trusting the management positions because of their golfing abilities, but where are the factories, the research centers and the Technical Universities ?

Anyway, that was quite refreshing to learn about ex-PM Kevin Rudd being despised by quite a lot here, and NZ having to stay at the door - I enjoyed reading that, their world is not so solid, it seems.

And regarding the letter of program appreciation received by the French governement the morning of the AUKUS annoucement, saying as it has been wrtten above : "departments are numerous in government offices, they don't talk to each other " " that was a proof of the secrecy of the deal to come" does seem to me a little bit immature, like a child miserable excuse. Who is the petulant child once again ?
Petulant and livid maybe, but still with some honor.
Keep treating your allies like that, and you will see the results.
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Old 24th Sep 2021, 15:07
  #352 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Buster Hyman
Obvious answers to both of those but, whilst we know Oz is not a big player in Military expenditure (big for us though), does the EU seriously want to undermine the fact that a lot of our kit is from Europe already?
It's not the EU. It's France. They try to get some backing from the rest of the EU but the response is rather lackluster. It was an Arms Deal between France and Australia. End of. EU was never involved in that deal and would not have profited.
It's the general loss of interest of the US in the transatlantic axis and the massive shift towards APAC what worries Europe (and where the solitary retreat from Afghanistan was showing the same pattern). That part of the cry- out is rather genuine. The tears over the dropped deal with France are not so much (except in France where it is almost the opposite). That's probably more kind of support of Macron against Front Nationale/Marine LePen.
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Old 24th Sep 2021, 15:11
  #353 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Video Mixdown
I personally find it a bit sad that New Zealand seems to have drifted so far away - they have been a valued and trusted ally for so long. In the past it would have been a given that NZ would be in that acronym somewhere. How do most Australians feel about it?
NZ is laughing all the way to the bank.....They have been under pressure for years by the Ozzies to increase their defence spend as a % of GDP but have resisted. To not be invited to the big table means that they didn't have to respectively decline the offer and then deal with the diplomatic fallout thereof.
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Old 24th Sep 2021, 15:36
  #354 (permalink)  
 
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Wow! Some serious thread creep from the spotters amongst us. As much as us Aussies are getting pointy in our panties about B-21’s, V22’s V280’s F15EX’s etc etc etc, we are the ultimate Bower Birds.
We will collect, gesticulate, pontificate all to you know, whaticate.

The submarine “announcement” will hopefully come to fruition, it is a no brainer in the current climate of the Xiping Dragon, whom is no doubt hell bent on ruling the Pacific and Indian Oceans - no matter the cost. Subs like the Virginia and Astute will keep him worried, we need those subs. (P.S. I ain’t Chips n Gravy - not weird enough)

As for the Spotter/Bower Bird milk bottle top collectors, perhaps we should put our energy in to pressuring our government to shorten the time frame of an off the shelf Virginia/Astute boat.

The Lord knows the Amateur, sorry, Australian Army Aviation Corpse will try and turn any V22/V280 into an IFR RPT Rotary Airliner never able to deploy and waste at least a decade reinventing the round wheel into a square wheel.

The RAAF will most likely see greater benefit from Rapid Dragon and an expansion of the Transport fleet, rather than F15EX, they are smart enough to know it.

Here is truly hoping that all the milk bottle tops, hair ties, and discarded lego pieces that us Aussie’s collect - never need to be used, and that Xiping Dragon drops dead soon and the Chinese people are left to enjoy their great country in a peaceful way.
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Old 24th Sep 2021, 18:16
  #355 (permalink)  
 
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Macron: ""Tu es une merde !"
Biden: "C'mon Man - quit whining about the submarine deal"
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Old 24th Sep 2021, 19:41
  #356 (permalink)  
 
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Arrow

India formalises acquisition of 56 Airbus C295 aircraft

Programme to kick-start first-ever private aircraft manufacturing in India; will contribute significantly to developing the country’s military industrial ecosystem


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Old 24th Sep 2021, 20:44
  #357 (permalink)  
 
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And that relates to AUKUS in what way?
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Old 24th Sep 2021, 22:34
  #358 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fliegenmong
Don't care, half of NZ live here and hate Australia, and make it known. Kinda like certain nationalities in the UK who are happy to live there but hate it and all that it stands for...
That would be the Jocks and Welsh, who depend on the English for handouts, which they waste.
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Old 25th Sep 2021, 00:25
  #359 (permalink)  
 
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From the JTA News Bulletin Jan 8 1968:

........Some diplomatic sources in Jerusalem said the French move places Paris squarely behind the Arabs and loses for it any standing as a possible intermediary in the Middle East dispute. The “total embargo” announcement shocked Israel as there had been no hint that such action was contemplated. But diplomatic observers believed that while Jerusalem-Paris relations would be frigid they would not be broken.

Editorial comment was bitter. The independent daily Haaretz declared: “We will never forget de Gaulle’s hostile intention to make us surrender. But we will not surrender.”

(Paris newspapers, with the exception of the Gaullist La Nation and the Communist Humanite, severely criticized the French Government for its “total embargo.” Le Figaro termed it a “further escalation of France’s anti-Israel attitude.” L’Aurore called the de Gaulle decision a “breach of honor.” Several prominent French political personalities also criticized the de Gaulle move, among them George Duhammel, president of the Independent Party, and Daniel Mayer, president of the French League for the Rights of Man.)
From History Net:

By 1968 contractors had completed and delivered seven of the Cherbourg boats. But France prohibited release of the remaining five, even though Israel had already paid for them. With France reneging on the deal, Israeli forces hatched a plan to spirit the boats away from Cherbourg and sail them to Israel.
The word renege means; go back on a promise, undertaking, or contract."they have reneged on their promises to us"

I put the bolding in. Me thinks some French people are the pot calling the kettle "noir"

Last edited by Lookleft; 25th Sep 2021 at 00:36.
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Old 25th Sep 2021, 00:28
  #360 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by golder
And that relates to AUKUS in what way?

India operates high-tech French military equipment at the forefront of its defence against the Chinese Communist Party.

6 x Scorpene-class submarines: confidential design and data specifications leaked in a major security breach.

Rafael/Mirage 2000 combat aircraft: following 2019 trade agreements which included large civilian aircraft orders, France appeared to turn a blind-eye at its former Armée de l'Air combat pilots employed in consultancy roles with the PLA, addressing the well known divide in operational training standards. recceguy could confirm the extent of this cooperation.

So all in all, if you see China as a player in your security and strategic outlook, and operate French-made military equipment, caveat emptor.

Last edited by Gnadenburg; 25th Sep 2021 at 00:44.
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