AUKUS

[rattman]

Originally Posted by recceguy

And we have to call them "friends" or "allies" ??
It was so good to see them running away at KBL recently, we were playing the vid's again and again.....

France is the ultimate judge of running away, been doing it through out their history

[rattman]

Originally Posted by ORAC

Good luck with that….

Wonder what the ramifiactions of selling nuclear hardware to a non signitory of the NPT would be

[recceguy]

Originally Posted by rattman

.... of running away....

Like the Brits in Dunkirk ?

By the way, ex-Australian PM Kevin Rudd signed today a very offensive paper in French newspaper "Le Monde" - against current PM Scott Morrison, regarding this matter.
I suggest everybody here to get informed a little bit more.

[ORAC]

Dunkirk? A fighting retreat where the rearguard fought to the last man, including the 1st French Army which held half the line. A retreat which saved over 300,000 troops to form the nucleus of those who later liberated Europe, including the free French army…

“Despite this German military success, the Allies were able to rescue 338,226 military personnel from the Dunkirk perimeter. This included 139,997 French, Polish, Dutch and Belgian troops.”…..

Dunkirk - Defence of the Perimeter » Dunkirk 1940 - The Before, The Reality, The Aftermath

But that you react in this way show the depth of the anger which losing a contract, which has been forecast for years, has generated - and makes the future of the Franco-British Lancaster agreements on joint production of missiles and mutual support of maritime and land operations in doubt.

And of course the doubts, as reflected in the articles above, on the future of NATO as US attention pivots to the Pacific theatre.

[Video Mixdown]

Originally Posted by recceguy

Like the Brits in Dunkirk ?

By the way, ex-Australian PM Kevin Rudd signed today a very offensive paper in French newspaper "Le Monde" - against current PM Scott Morrison, regarding this matter.
I suggest everybody here to get informed a little bit more.

I really think you need to calm down a bit. A French company has lost a contract, that's all. It happens all the time.

[recceguy]

Originally Posted by Video Mixdown

.... need to calm down a bit

So you insult people, and you ask them to calm down after ?

Originally Posted by Video Mixdown

A French company has lost a contract, that's all..

It's not about losing a contract - how many times shall we have to tell that ? it's about being betrayed.
Contract had been signed, and it appeared its value was like one of a working contract in Dubaï.
Therefore WE, and not you, will decide when it's over.

And you would be surprised about my personal position regarding UK and Oz establishment - but no way unfortunately I'm going to put that here.

[rattman]

Originally Posted by recceguy

So you insult people, and you ask them to calm down after ?


It's not about losing a contract .

Nah its about all the bribes and corruption that they spent gone to waste

By the way, ex-Australian PM Kevin Rudd signed today a very offensive paper in French newspaper "Le Monde" - against current PM Scott Morrison, regarding this matter.

You mean kevin Rudd, registered agent of a foreign government - China

But Rudd hates morrison he would team up with chinese to shit on morrission. I hate morrission but this was the right decision. NG were screwing australia straight up intentionally they are equally responsible and should take the blame as well

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by recceguy

Why not, there is more potential, future and brain in 1/20 of India than in the whole Oz. And everybody knows that.

Not in my experience.

They are just cheap. And for a reason.

[BFSGrad]

Originally Posted by rattman

Wonder what the ramifiactions of selling nuclear hardware to a non signitory of the NPT would be

As long as the transfer is for peaceful use (i.e., use for other than nuclear weapon), the NPT imposes no restrictions.

[Gnadenburg]

recceguy

You dodged my snippet earlier and surely you know this as it was passed to me by ex-French Rafael and Mirage pilots. Former French fighter pilots have accepted consultancy contracts in the Peoples Republic of China to teach PLA pilots Western tactics.

Now I was of the understanding this was not just targeting Taiwanese Mirage operations, it extended to NATO. If it was just Taiwan, what duplicity and betrayal, as you have an active exchange program with the Taiwanese (recently at least).

What of your ex-submariners? The PLAN has all the leaked info they want on Indian submarines what of any other unofficial French assistance.

To be honest, your anger is misplaced and comparing it to wage contracts in the Middle East simple. Australia always had options to leave the program if not satisfied. For years now, commentary has been critical of the program and to go from 50 billion to 90 billion was never sustainable, especially with commercial offsets starting to look shady and not guaranteed.

British and American personnel have fought side by side with Australians. Even on our own soil. I'm sorry you are offended, but for most Australians, this new security pact is far more comforting than any Great White Hope in the form of French naval technology.

Can I just add the Australian submarine base is near Perth, Western Australia. Adelaide, South Australia is where they are to be built. Darwin is not a submarine base despite some saying it should be (a number of researchable issues)

[Lookleft]

The very day AUKUS was announced, French naval shipyards got a letter in the morning from the Australian government, stating that everything was fine and that they were happy with the process, ready to move forward to the next step. If that's not duplicity, tell me what it is.
This letter does exist, and will be published quite soon.
Brace for it.

All you are highlighting is that there were parts of the Australian Government that were also not told about the decision to source the subs from somewhere else. Its not unusual. A bit like an airline continuing to recruit and train pilots when those in the know are preparing to shut it down. If you can produce a letter that was signed by the PM then that would be a revelation.

By the way, ex-Australian PM Kevin Rudd signed today a very offensive paper in French newspaper "Le Monde" - against current PM Scott Morrison, regarding this matter.
I suggest everybody here to get informed a little bit more.

If you actually knew a bit more about Australia you would realise that former PM Kevin 07 (look that phrase up) would have sold us all to China and spends a lot of time denigrating Scott Morrison whenever the opportunity presents itself. Even Rudd's own political party didn't like him and got rid of him at the first opportunity.

It's not about losing a contract - how many times shall we have to tell that ? it's about being betrayed. Contract had been signed,

So how would you classify what France did to Israel in the late 60's? You don't seem to want to address that issue as that was a real stab in the back when Israel had paid for and the equipment was built awaiting delivery. It was also at a time that Israel was facing very hostile neighbours whose stated aim was to destroy them. That is what a real stab in the back looks like.

You want to invoke Dunkirk as an example of the Brits running away. You might want to ask your good mates the Belgians as to why they wouldn't allow the BEF into Belgium before the Germans invaded which is why they were forced to the coast. You might want to also look at the history of the 51st Highland Division. The figure often quoted is 300,000 evacuated. What is not quoted, especially by the French, is that half of that number were French soldiers who were then returned to France. If you want to start looking at the French contribution in WW2 you might also, in the interest of balanced discussion, talk about the Vichy collaboration with the Germans run by a French General. Then there is the whole hero worship of Napoleon, it says a lot about French sensitivities to their position in world affairs.

[Grumpy retiree]

Dunkirk ? Really ?
For the second time in 25 years in British and Commonwealth troops were deployed in defence of France.
And you call it running away ???
I’ll tell you what the biggest mistake was. It wasn’t cancelling the sub. contract. It was getting involved in 1914.
Should have sat it out like the Franco-Prussian War.

[ehwatezedoing]

Back to the usual French bashing I see. Not surprising in a predominantly Anglo speaking forum.
You will say what you want, AUKUS was a total betrayal the way it was “created”

Things will eventually smooth out.

[rattman]

Originally Posted by Gnadenburg

Can I just add the Australian submarine base is near Perth, Western Australia. Adelaide, South Australia is where they are to be built. Darwin is not a submarine base despite some saying it should be ( a number of researchable issues )

All the RAN keep there is some patrol boats. And its gets visited by the USN every so often when bringing in equipment for the rotational marine force that spends 6 months there. Theres been talk for years that the USN is building a base there, but its a pretty shitty location for one. That all said a large contract was let by the DOD for construction of a large tank farm for storage of fuel in the last few weeks

[rattman]

Interesting apparently the US were the ones that rushed the announcement, not giving smirko enough time to notify everyone

e minimal heads-up from the three nations to their French ally came up during a phone call between Biden and Macron on Wednesday.

Philippe Etienne, the French ambassador to the US, said he found out about the allies pulling out of the deal through the press despite Australian officials saying they provided notice. American officials acknowledged they only gave Australia a few hours' notice before announcing the deal, according to The New York Times.

"The two leaders agreed that the situation would have benefitted from open consultations among allies on matters of strategic interest to France and our European partners," the Biden and Macron administrations said in a joint statement.

"They will meet in Europe at the end of October in order to reach shared understandings and maintain momentum in this process," they continued. "President Emmanuel Macron has decided that the French Ambassador will return to Washington next week."

Macron got his chance to play the anti anglo card before the election to give himself the boost.

[tartare]

Originally Posted by rattman

All the RAN keep there is some patrol boats. And its gets visited by the USN every so often when bringing in equipment for the rotational marine force that spends 6 months there. Theres been talk for years that the USN is building a base there, but its a pretty shitty location for one. That all said a large contract was let by the DOD for construction of a large tank farm for storage of fuel in the last few weeks

I thought the water round there and the Timor Sea was pretty shallow too?
Big, strong tides and currents.
Hard to get a big boat (in a submarine sense) in and out, treacherous on the way and easy for people who wanted to - to track arrivals and departures.
Only when you get over near West Timor, or east of the Gulf of Carpentaria that it starts to get really deep.

[Lookleft]

Back to the usual French bashing I see. Not surprising in a predominantly Anglo speaking forum.
You will say what you want, AUKUS was a total betrayal the way it was “created”

Yeah because recceguy has been graceful in his suggestion that Australian's are stupid and don't have the intelligence to operate anything larger than a tinnie.

You do however bring up a good point about the predominantly Anglo speaking forum. The lesson is- If you take on one you take on all.

[rattman]

Originally Posted by tartare

I thought the water round there and the Timor Sea was pretty shallow too?
Big, strong tides and currents.
Hard to get a big boat (in a submarine sense) in and out, treacherous on the way and easy for people who wanted to - to track arrivals and departures.
Only when you get over near West Timor, or east of the Gulf of Carpentaria that it starts to get really deep.

Pretty much the arafura and timor seas aren't that good for subs. The only imho place worse for naval base in australia would be the north east coast of queensland because of the barrier reef

If you wanted to make new base and willing spend the billions broome / derby / port headland area would be the place. Hundreds of KM from anything gives go good security. Virtually immediate access to open/deep water

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

I’m wondering if all this hysterical French fury is for real, or just a bit of performative outrage that might impress the likes of the Chinese (who go in for that sort of thing).

[Grumpy retiree]

Originally Posted by Lookleft

Yeah because recceguy has been graceful in his suggestion that Australian's are stupid and don't have the intelligence to operate anything larger than a tinnie.

You do however bring up a good point about the predominantly Anglo speaking forum. The lesson is- If you take on one you take on all.

Agree.
Also words and phrases like ‘betrayal’ and ‘running away’ don’t sit well with those of us who had close relatives who fought on the western front in WW1 and the skies over France in WW2.