'The U.S.A has your back'...what does that mean?
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This thread only provides those people with an anti-American stance a platform to sling mud. What we have here is simply a clear indication of an inept administration led by a grossly incompetent president - the haste and incompetence of the withdrawal is a national disgrace. I’m incredibly sorry for the people of Afghanistan, but let’s not lose sight of the fact that when all is said and done the people who are setting fire to women for bad cooking and murdering people simply for being related to someone who escaped the country are primarily other Afghans.
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we saved your silly asses during WWII. We just have a imbecile running our country right now.
Not much being said about the Afghan army, and the speed with which it collapsed.
Having said that I have seen videos of Afghan soldiers crying and refusing to give up their weapons to their commanders when he wants to surrender. I have seen the videos of the afghan special forces putting up a fight and being executed when captured. I have seen the protests by civilians, men and woman against the Taliban rule. Those are the soldiers and civilians fighting for their country, their families and freedom.. This story is a long way from being done..
Biden should be held responsible for this current mess, the way it was planned and implemented. If they wanted to impeach trump for something far less important than what Biden has done, then there is no excuse for not going after Biden as well...
By the way, I live in the middle east, I have been to Bagram, Kandahar and Kabul many times so I also have personal interests in whats happening there now, and I am sad and disgusted...
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U.S. has other allies as well, not just the UK. What threats do UK have? dunno. What threats do eg. South Korea or Taiwan have? Or the Baltic states? Well, some.
This thread only provides those people with an anti-American stance a platform to sling mud. What we have here is simply a clear indication of an inept administration led by a grossly incompetent president - the haste and incompetence of the withdrawal is a national disgrace. I’m incredibly sorry for the people of Afghanistan, but let’s not lose sight of the fact that when all is said and done the people who are setting fire to women for bad cooking and murdering people simply for being related to someone who escaped the country are primarily other Afghans.
My critisms are aimed at those people runing the show or not, as is the case, I have always found the US military to be second to none and had a lot of friends in the USAF.
I feel this has become a game changer the world will not forget if called upon again.
Trump promised to 'end the forever wars' before he was even elected in 2016. His Doha agreement with the Taliban promised complete US withdrawal by 31 May 2021. Biden confirmed in April that the withdrawal would go ahead, with a new deadline for logistic reasons but still in time for the 9/11 anniversary. How much more warning did anyone need? The simple fact is that the UK and others dragged our feet because our policy elites didn't understand how precarious the Afghan house of cards was, and in their permanent state of optimism thought they would be able to pressure Biden into changing his mind. Which is a very arrogant stance to take when it's considered that 1) we drew down our combat missions years ago, 2) it would be US soldiers bearing the brunt of renewed Taliban attacks on NATO troops, and 3) we all drastically underspend on defence by comparison to the US. Why should the US have patience for those kind of games when it's facing the expiry of a ceasefire it negotiated 18 months ago, and has already extended once?
One could make an argument:
When was the last time the U.S. won a war on their own? The Border war.
When was the last time the UK won a war on their own? The Falklands.
When was the last time the U.S. won a war on their own? The Border war.
When was the last time the UK won a war on their own? The Falklands.
I wonder if someone can explain just who is being airlifted out.
As I understand it, the UK presence in Afghanistan at the start of this was just a couple of thousand uniformed troops. There must have been a plan, as anywhere, to lift these out in very short order if necessary.
Then, separately, there would be civilian contractors from the UK, I don't know the numbers, but likely not more than the troop numbers.
However the photos coming out show the vast majority in crowds, or inside the aircraft, to be apparently Afghans. Who are these ? The only media mention is of "interpreters". I really can't see that many interpreters being needed, or even those number of bilingual speakers in the country. Whatever checks are being made, or even able to be made, on who is boarding the aircraft ? There are accounts of arrivals in the UK "just with the clothes they stand up in", so any formal documentation check is presumably non-existent. Are they all fluent in English ? If one has been an interpreter this would seem to be a pretty basic start. But how can there have been so many interpreters ? Or is it just open season to get to Europe/USA ?
As I understand it, the UK presence in Afghanistan at the start of this was just a couple of thousand uniformed troops. There must have been a plan, as anywhere, to lift these out in very short order if necessary.
Then, separately, there would be civilian contractors from the UK, I don't know the numbers, but likely not more than the troop numbers.
However the photos coming out show the vast majority in crowds, or inside the aircraft, to be apparently Afghans. Who are these ? The only media mention is of "interpreters". I really can't see that many interpreters being needed, or even those number of bilingual speakers in the country. Whatever checks are being made, or even able to be made, on who is boarding the aircraft ? There are accounts of arrivals in the UK "just with the clothes they stand up in", so any formal documentation check is presumably non-existent. Are they all fluent in English ? If one has been an interpreter this would seem to be a pretty basic start. But how can there have been so many interpreters ? Or is it just open season to get to Europe/USA ?
At a start, I'm assuming each interpreter has a family which will inflate the numbers. Also, not just interpreters, but embassy staff, journalists/facilitators who worked for BBC and other Western media, NGO officials, cleaners and other staff at bases, etc. If they want out let's get them out, I say.
Towards the bottom here :
Biden's week of blame and tumult after Kabul fall - BBC News
anyway, let's not conflate who is being evacuated with other views.
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I wonder if someone can explain just who is being airlifted out.
As I understand it, the UK presence in Afghanistan at the start of this was just a couple of thousand uniformed troops. There must have been a plan, as anywhere, to lift these out in very short order if necessary.
Then, separately, there would be civilian contractors from the UK, I don't know the numbers, but likely not more than the troop numbers.
However the photos coming out show the vast majority in crowds, or inside the aircraft, to be apparently Afghans. Who are these ? The only media mention is of "interpreters". I really can't see that many interpreters being needed, or even those number of bilingual speakers in the country. Whatever checks are being made, or even able to be made, on who is boarding the aircraft ? There are accounts of arrivals in the UK "just with the clothes they stand up in", so any formal documentation check is presumably non-existent. Are they all fluent in English ? If one has been an interpreter this would seem to be a pretty basic start. But how can there have been so many interpreters ? Or is it just open season to get to Europe/USA ?
As I understand it, the UK presence in Afghanistan at the start of this was just a couple of thousand uniformed troops. There must have been a plan, as anywhere, to lift these out in very short order if necessary.
Then, separately, there would be civilian contractors from the UK, I don't know the numbers, but likely not more than the troop numbers.
However the photos coming out show the vast majority in crowds, or inside the aircraft, to be apparently Afghans. Who are these ? The only media mention is of "interpreters". I really can't see that many interpreters being needed, or even those number of bilingual speakers in the country. Whatever checks are being made, or even able to be made, on who is boarding the aircraft ? There are accounts of arrivals in the UK "just with the clothes they stand up in", so any formal documentation check is presumably non-existent. Are they all fluent in English ? If one has been an interpreter this would seem to be a pretty basic start. But how can there have been so many interpreters ? Or is it just open season to get to Europe/USA ?
...and no children I could spot.
Personally, I am not going to criticise young men or anyone else for wanting to get out of Afghanistan while they can. If I were in their shoes, I would no doubt do the same (as I am guessing would you, WHBM).
Looking at the photo of the USAF C-17 interior they appeared to be 90%-plus young guys. Very few families, women and no children I could spot.
Towards the bottom here :
Biden's week of blame and tumult after Kabul fall - BBC News
anyway, let's not conflate who is being evacuated with other views.
Towards the bottom here :
Biden's week of blame and tumult after Kabul fall - BBC News
anyway, let's not conflate who is being evacuated with other views.
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This is a thread about the reliability of the USA as an ally... any chance we could keep airlift discussion to the Afghanistan thread?
The question posed by the OP didn't just relate to the UK and nor did Mr Nimrod's point to which I responded. Taiwan is mentioned up thread, but the discussion here is clearly a more general question "can any of the US's allies trust it?". So your questions are completely irrelevant because Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and the Baltic states rely on the US to deter old-fashioned territorial aggression. Moreover, if I might adopt your style for a moment: how many times has NATO Article V been invoked? What was the nature of the aggression? Are there other forms of aggression besides invasion? Does our being allied to the US complicate the calculations of potential opponents?
You wrote "I feel this has become a game changer the world will not forget if called upon again". How is that anything but a long-term assessment?! Don't move the goal posts.
No, the struggle to evacuate came about because of our decision not to take earlier action. Whether the February 2020 deal was idiotic is beside the point. It was 18 months ago! Let's be charitable and say the UK government was distracted by the aftermath of the 2019 election, then Brexit and then Covid for a few months: that still left a year. And our government still failed to take any action after Biden confirmed the decision in April 2021. Four months ago! All of that time was wasted, on the optimistic basis that whoever won the US election could be persuaded to change their mind, and on the delusional assessment that the former Afghan government could have survived with minimal non-US western support. The UK government should accept the blame for those failures.
Originally Posted by highflyer40
A who is this supposed aggressor? Who would want to invade and occupy the UK? Why would they want to, and what is there to take?
Originally Posted by NutLoose
Easy, I am talking in the relative short term, not long term.
Originally Posted by NutLoose
the struggle to evacuate only came about because of the idiotic decision to depart when they have, so is a knock on effect of that policy, do we just write off those citizens because of that?
Easy Street, I hear what you are saying, but I'd like to add that none of the countries realised that the afghan army would fall that fast and the afghan president would be somewhere warm even before the army fell.
The collapse was so fast that for the first time ever finnish special forces have been deployed out of country (to bring home the embassy staff, the total of 200 was sent home during weekend, well done).
Yes, everyone knew that U.S. forces are leaving, but no one realized the afghan government would fall entirely the following night, hence the embassies were there (as it should be in a stabile country).
To add, it was a surprise to everyone that U.S. troops left overnight, even without taking the U.S. citizens along. Which to me says the U.S. was caught off guard of the fall of afghan military. Can we blame the other countries of falling in the same trap then?
The collapse was so fast that for the first time ever finnish special forces have been deployed out of country (to bring home the embassy staff, the total of 200 was sent home during weekend, well done).
Yes, everyone knew that U.S. forces are leaving, but no one realized the afghan government would fall entirely the following night, hence the embassies were there (as it should be in a stabile country).
To add, it was a surprise to everyone that U.S. troops left overnight, even without taking the U.S. citizens along. Which to me says the U.S. was caught off guard of the fall of afghan military. Can we blame the other countries of falling in the same trap then?
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Like so many on this forum, I am watching the events unfolding in Afghanistan with incredulity, frustration and anger. However, rather than go over the causes for and consequences of the hasty withdrawal of Coalition forces, I wanted to get your view on a slightly different question.
What do members think will be the view of both the USA's allies and 'enemies' in light of their decision to cut-'n-run from Afghanistan. They US governement are now openly refusing entry to the airport of those who aided their forces (confirmed by multiple news outlets), despite promising them they would be kept safe. The world is watching, and what is the world going to take away from this? What does a US 'guarantee' now mean - will anyone believe them - is it worth the paper it is written on?
For example, the US repeatedly says it will defent Taiwan militarily if China decides to invade. Has the import of that statement just changed? Will China be emboldened, and will Taiwan now be nervous? Or, will the removal of forces from the 'stan now allow Biden to pivot to Asia and will China now be worried?
The UK integrated review looked at the shape of our defence moving forwards, and was done in the light of the world's most powerful military being behind us at all times. Can we still count on the US as an unwavering partner? Recent events would clearly seem to indicate that we cannot. Is the review now fit for purpose?
I would love to hear your views.
What do members think will be the view of both the USA's allies and 'enemies' in light of their decision to cut-'n-run from Afghanistan. They US governement are now openly refusing entry to the airport of those who aided their forces (confirmed by multiple news outlets), despite promising them they would be kept safe. The world is watching, and what is the world going to take away from this? What does a US 'guarantee' now mean - will anyone believe them - is it worth the paper it is written on?
For example, the US repeatedly says it will defent Taiwan militarily if China decides to invade. Has the import of that statement just changed? Will China be emboldened, and will Taiwan now be nervous? Or, will the removal of forces from the 'stan now allow Biden to pivot to Asia and will China now be worried?
The UK integrated review looked at the shape of our defence moving forwards, and was done in the light of the world's most powerful military being behind us at all times. Can we still count on the US as an unwavering partner? Recent events would clearly seem to indicate that we cannot. Is the review now fit for purpose?
I would love to hear your views.
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Beamr,
It was reasonable for Finland to have left 200 people there: only one aircraft-load. Good job in getting them out after the surprise early collapse. Did any Afghan staff get evacuated with them?
However it was not reasonable for the UK to have left so many citizens and thousands of vulnerable Afghan workers in country so close to the deadline given the known extent of Taliban control in the countryside and the refusal of either Afghan party to enter talks.
It was reasonable for Finland to have left 200 people there: only one aircraft-load. Good job in getting them out after the surprise early collapse. Did any Afghan staff get evacuated with them?
However it was not reasonable for the UK to have left so many citizens and thousands of vulnerable Afghan workers in country so close to the deadline given the known extent of Taliban control in the countryside and the refusal of either Afghan party to enter talks.
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With all kinds of material support, intelligence, logistics, etc from the US. Without such, the Malvinas would have remained in Argie hands.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
If any other nation, especially the UK as the main ally, had started to pull out all its citizens and offer visas and evacuation to its local employees they’d have been accused of starting the collapse.
Like it or not all the allies were bound, and obliged, to follow the US lead. Which placed a heavy burden on the US to consult, and more importantly give advance warning to, their allies on their plans to withdraw troops.
The unannounced withdrawal from Bagram sent shock waves not only through the Afghan army and Air Force but all the other allies with troops and citizens in country.
Like it or not all the allies were bound, and obliged, to follow the US lead. Which placed a heavy burden on the US to consult, and more importantly give advance warning to, their allies on their plans to withdraw troops.
The unannounced withdrawal from Bagram sent shock waves not only through the Afghan army and Air Force but all the other allies with troops and citizens in country.
