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All Hawk T1s will be gone by 31 March 2022

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All Hawk T1s will be gone by 31 March 2022

Old 29th Jul 2021, 06:24
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CAEBr View Post
Exactly, and since they still have to be serviced and maintained, with a functioning TAA, and can't be subsumed into theTMk2 fleet, then while fewer TMk1s will be in service, the support system will remain meanimg any savings are going to be less than diddly squat, certainly not enough to provide any meaning alternative to 100 Sqn.
Depends on the renegotiation of the Hawk Support Contracts of which there are currently four. If they realise savings from these, along with full AFT savings for 100 Sqn, then regardless of RAFAT enduring there will be a pot of money. The question is, how will those realised savings be reinvested? Into Cyber, AI, and Space or an interim COCO provision pre-NGOT/MUSTANG at reduced hours? Have they been identified to fund the BAE contract to support 9 Sqn QEAF at Leeming or an uplift in T2 hours at Valley on IV and 25 Sqn? Let's wait and find out.........they'll end up with an Alpha Jet
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Old 29th Jul 2021, 17:29
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The RAF would probably consider Alpha Jets as cutting edge!
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Old 29th Jul 2021, 17:57
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Originally Posted by Foghorn Leghorn View Post
The RAF would probably consider Alpha Jets as cutting edge!
At least it's not a Hunter
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Old 29th Jul 2021, 18:27
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Originally Posted by DuckDodgers View Post
At least it's not a Hunter
It's only 70 years and 9 days since the Hunter's first flight ...

Presumably there are also savings from the end of 736 NAS. With the move to more simulation and the variation it can offer I suspect the question of real, as opposed to virtual, red air will be parked until the Tranche 1 Typhoons are about to be retired.

Nerd question: do RAFAT still operate a T1A only fleet? Allows hair splitters to get away with "All T1s ..."

Last bit of Hawk nostalgia from me, XX163 was the first Hawk delivered to Valley on 04 November 1976 (with '162). Written off while allocated to the CFS on 01 July 1993. Instructor and student instructor ejected safely following a landing accident resulting in fire.

Here it is taxying in its 4 FTS days. (Scanned from a print so quality not great).


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Old 29th Jul 2021, 20:29
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Originally Posted by SLXOwft View Post
With the move to more simulation and the variation it can offer I suspect the question of real, as opposed to virtual, red air will be parked until the Tranche 1 Typhoons are about to be retired.

No, I donít think thatís going to be the case. Thereís a burgeoning need for Red Air for the RAF right now which is going unserviced, which is going to be compounded when the Ton gets binned.
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Old 29th Jul 2021, 20:30
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Originally Posted by DuckDodgers View Post
At least it's not a Hunter
Ha, yes, I know what you mean. Please donít be a hunter if thereís a COCO bid!
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Old 30th Jul 2021, 07:05
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Originally Posted by Foghorn Leghorn View Post
No, I donít think thatís going to be the case. Thereís a burgeoning need for Red Air for the RAF right now which is going unserviced, which is going to be compounded when the Ton gets binned.
That's the real problem especially when you look as to how much Red Air that the RAF and RN consume right now which excluding minor contracts and in-house squadron generation is broadly: IX Sqn Typhoon 1,200hrs (never realised), 736 NAS and 100 Sqn 5,350hrs Hawk T1/1A (includes CT), MSASS 6,500hrs (Falcon 20 and DA42). Even under the defunct ASDOT programme the requirement was to the magnitude of 6,170hrs per year across all COCO capabilities with some 3,300hrs Hawk T1/1A out until 2027.

So the problem space between 1 April 2022 (much earlier than envisaged) and when the live programme within the NGOT portfolio is supposed to commence (good luck with the schedule on that) is obvious. How do you plug a 33 month gap assuming you have identified a funding line? Rapid competition that ditches any MAA requirements beyond an inspection and recommendations against current certification base (done recently in both Germany and France)? Add capability to an extant service provision (legal challenges)? Take a capability gap until synthetic maturity levels are viable and your'e able to fund its injection pan platform and domain (there goes your training AND operational assurance)? Leverage another national or multi-national programme (oh shucks, we're not in the EDA no more Toto)? The problem with all of this is that Air Cap still have not approached industry in a formal capacity either through a working group (rather like the way ACC and USAFE have done it) nor through an engagement day.

Bottom line is that it's a mess, was all totally avoidable assuming leaders actually owned their portfolios and made decisions rather than leaving it to the next man or woman to do.
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Old 1st Aug 2021, 09:58
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Originally Posted by DuckDodgers View Post
That's the real problem especially when you look as to how much Red Air that the RAF and RN consume right now which excluding minor contracts and in-house squadron generation is broadly: IX Sqn Typhoon 1,200hrs (never realised), 736 NAS and 100 Sqn 5,350hrs Hawk T1/1A (includes CT), MSASS 6,500hrs (Falcon 20 and DA42). Even under the defunct ASDOT programme the requirement was to the magnitude of 6,170hrs per year across all COCO capabilities with some 3,300hrs Hawk T1/1A out until 2027.

So the problem space between 1 April 2022 (much earlier than envisaged) and when the live programme within the NGOT portfolio is supposed to commence (good luck with the schedule on that) is obvious. How do you plug a 33 month gap assuming you have identified a funding line? Rapid competition that ditches any MAA requirements beyond an inspection and recommendations against current certification base (done recently in both Germany and France)? Add capability to an extant service provision (legal challenges)? Take a capability gap until synthetic maturity levels are viable and your'e able to fund its injection pan platform and domain (there goes your training AND operational assurance)? Leverage another national or multi-national programme (oh shucks, we're not in the EDA no more Toto)? The problem with all of this is that Air Cap still have not approached industry in a formal capacity either through a working group (rather like the way ACC and USAFE have done it) nor through an engagement day.

Bottom line is that it's a mess, was all totally avoidable assuming leaders actually owned their portfolios and made decisions rather than leaving it to the next man or woman to do.
It is indeed a mess. A mess which is only going to be solved through some fairly rapid decision making and COAs that produce a viable and credible aggressor capability. Interesting times, for sure and the outcome will be interesting in terms of what does happen and the timeline for it to happen.
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Old 1st Aug 2021, 11:20
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Originally Posted by SLXOwft View Post
Nerd question: do RAFAT still operate a T1A only fleet? Allows hair splitters to get away with "All T1s ..."
They never have and still don't. The title has been incorrect from the start.
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Old 10th Sep 2021, 16:11
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Rumour has it that the Joint Air Land Organisation (JALO) are making contingency plans to move up to 3 Joint Forward Air Controller Training and Standards Unit (JFACTSU) courses and additional JTAC live currency training to the United States at a value of £4.5 million per year due to the withdrawal of Hawk T1 from service in the air support role.
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Old 11th Sep 2021, 10:21
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Originally Posted by _SpinFlight_ View Post
Rumour has it that the Joint Air Land Organisation (JALO) are making contingency plans to move up to 3 Joint Forward Air Controller Training and Standards Unit (JFACTSU) courses and additional JTAC live currency training to the United States at a value of £4.5 million per year due to the withdrawal of Hawk T1 from service in the air support role.
By any chance will these be with the Marine Corps with MAWTS-1 at MCAS Yuma.

Cheers
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Old 11th Sep 2021, 10:50
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Originally Posted by chopper2004 View Post
By any chance will these be with the Marine Corps with MAWTS-1 at MCAS Yuma.

Cheers
Not from what I am hearing, most likely approach is via a contractor at an existing training location.
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Old 11th Sep 2021, 22:13
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by _SpinFlight_ View Post
Not from what I am hearing, most likely approach is via a contractor at an existing training location.
Come on SpinFlight, spill the beansÖ..a fast jet or more DA-42s?
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Old 12th Sep 2021, 12:52
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https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/14...eralis-hawk-t1
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Old 12th Sep 2021, 13:18
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"Sources say the RAF has its sites on Aeralis, which has already designed the first British jet-fighter since the 1970s"

"Aureoles is producing five variants,"

First is poor proof reading and the second is the journalist making themselves look a right tit.

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Old 12th Sep 2021, 13:34
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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"The RAF's elite aerobatic display team have been using the single-seater Hawk T1 for more than 40 years", By MARCO GIANNANGELI, DEFENCE EDITOR

Hey Marco, how many fingers am I holding up? Yes, you're right ... TWO.
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Old 12th Sep 2021, 15:26
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...
According to my reading of the SI for XX177 (Red Arrows, Scampton, November 2011) the Board had trouble locating any valid Safety Case for the Hawk T1/T1a - either for the seat or for the whole aircraft, and difficulty with proper records for a lot of other stuff too.

The SI for XX204 (Red Arrows, Valley, March 2018) didn't seem to mention 'Safety Case' but reported irregularities with the RTS and difficulty in obtaining important documents, or non-retention thereof, from the various organisations with airworthiness fingers in the Hawk pie.

Ignoring the absence of a gas shackle, it seems that there may still be unresolved maintenance issues with the Mk 10B seat, for instance -
  • Do they still do seat maintenance in-aircraft, that should be done in the Seat Bay ?
  • Are they still working to RTI 059 ?
  • Do they still re-use old nuts and bolts?
  • Do they still talk the torque on the drogue shackle bolt ?
And considering the whole aircraft including the seat -
  • Is there now a valid safety case and fully updated and accurate RTS ?
  • Do previously identified irregularities still exist ?
  • What mandatory training is now given to travelling engineers and casual passengers ?
  • Would any of these irregularities repeat themselves if there were to be another crash ?
Is any of the above reflected in the abrupt decision to stop flying the seventy or so Hawk T1/1a (except for RAFAT) from April 1st 2022 ?

Does anyone know any better ?

LFH
...

Last edited by Lordflasheart; 12th Sep 2021 at 15:36.
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Old 12th Sep 2021, 20:27
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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ScorpionJet

Remember 6 years ago when the Textron AirLand Scorpionjet did the rounds here? Went to Cranditz and then exercised with the Baggers down at Culdrose (I was guest at Textron chalet at RIAT 2015 when cadre of Bagger aircrew were guests).

Was that not contender for the cough cough ASDOT in lieu of Hawk retirement as they partnered with Inzpire.

Cheers
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Old 12th Sep 2021, 20:36
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Originally Posted by chopper2004 View Post
Was that not contender for the cough cough ASDOT in lieu of Hawk retirement as they partnered with Inzpire.

Cheers
It was possibly a contender for ASDOT, but I doubt youíll get a formal answer as companies tend to still keep their cards close to their chest. With Hawk being dispensed with who knows what contract may come up. If you know the platform selection you can then work out costs and potentially undercut the competition.
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Old 13th Sep 2021, 00:30
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The Textron Scorpion jet has been put on the back burner pending launch customer, I personally think it would be a good aircraft in the sense of operating costs, as it had access to the groups parts bin from all their commercial civilian models, so costs should be lower.
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