All Hawk T1s will be gone by 31 March 2022
The story I heard was that 'Tercel' was the winning name but that the Management/RAF preferred the simpler 'Hawk' - it does roll off the tongue much easier than tercel 
The same debate has an MP calling for a DHFS style concentration of basic helicopter training and that the TWU and 4 FTS be co-located when they receive the HS 1182.
Perhaps the change was an early example of RAF wokeness - a tercel being a male hawk.
Assumes NBCD State 1 Condition Zulu Alpha ...
It's interesting that one of the students (I think there may have been 4 of them ?) on the very first Hawk course at RAF Valley (probably 1977 ?) is still taking the Queen's shilling as the Hawk T1 is about to end it's service. Having flown the Canberra, Hawk T1 (as a QFI) and the Tonka he swapped uniform to fly the 747 with Virgin. He subsequently came back into the fold as a Tutor man with both 5AEF and CUAS QFI at Wittering. Good old Tim, just as smiley as he ever was ! 
I certainly made a reasonable living out of Hawks (various marks) as a Rigger.
I helped introduce them into the weapons training role at RAF Brandy in 1977-80 as a fairly experienced J/T.Over the subsequent 35 years of what could laughingly be called my 'career' I probably did another 13 years on and off Hawks,by the time I quit working in 2015 there were probably not many techies still working on Hawks who had done the original Manufacturers 'Q' course at Dunsfold.
My last job 'somewhere in wiltshire' had a very eclectic Aircraft Fleet and I was qualified to work on 3 other aircraft types but always ended up being magnetted back to Hawks owing to my experience - it was a shame that the corporate management did not value the experience of us old wrinklies LOL (bitter ? - Moi ? ).
I helped introduce them into the weapons training role at RAF Brandy in 1977-80 as a fairly experienced J/T.Over the subsequent 35 years of what could laughingly be called my 'career' I probably did another 13 years on and off Hawks,by the time I quit working in 2015 there were probably not many techies still working on Hawks who had done the original Manufacturers 'Q' course at Dunsfold
.My last job 'somewhere in wiltshire' had a very eclectic Aircraft Fleet and I was qualified to work on 3 other aircraft types but always ended up being magnetted back to Hawks owing to my experience - it was a shame that the corporate management did not value the experience of us old wrinklies LOL (bitter ? - Moi ?
).
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This seems like a mistake to me! A relatively cheap aeroplane to operate. Why not allocate a couple to each Squadron as “Squadron Hacks” to keep their pilots hours and experience levels up.
Cheaper than always using the frontline aircraft and more realistic plus G experience. Better than just pure simulator time and a few hours on their Typhoon's.
Cheaper than always using the frontline aircraft and more realistic plus G experience. Better than just pure simulator time and a few hours on their Typhoon's.
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This seems like a mistake to me! A relatively cheap aeroplane to operate. Why not allocate a couple to each Squadron as “Squadron Hacks” to keep their pilots hours and experience levels up.
Cheaper than always using the frontline aircraft and more realistic plus G experience. Better than just pure simulator time and a few hours on their Typhoon's.
Cheaper than always using the frontline aircraft and more realistic plus G experience. Better than just pure simulator time and a few hours on their Typhoon's.
FH :-
No doubt, but the last I heard was that the seat had no safety case and hence both it and the aircraft it is fitted in were unairworthy. Has that changed, and if so how?
The serviceability and spares are an increasing issue.
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Exactly! Both BAE and RR have no real interest in prolonging T1 at mass, if you look at the past 24 months and the support contract negotiations debacle you can see why. MOD wanting more without paying for it, in this case >T2 hrs without a compensatory reduction in T1 hrs. Besides, the Air System Safety Case (ASSC) is also a bag of nails and I'd confidently state that any current COCO provision would provide a platform whose risk is more ALARP. That's before you look at training effects.........
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Exactly! Both BAE and RR have no real interest in prolonging T1 at mass, if you look at the past 24 months and the support contract negotiations debacle you can see why. MOD wanting more without paying for it, in this case >T2 hrs without a compensatory reduction in T1 hrs. Besides, the Air System Safety Case (ASSC) is also a bag of nails and I'd confidently state that any current COCO provision would provide a platform whose risk is more ALARP. That's before you look at training effects.........
Outside of the UK, I feel Europe is on the brink of becoming the next battleground for larger scale COCO aggressor platform operations.
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Thanks DD. It’ll be really quite interesting to see where the RAF/Navy (MoD/Treasury) go next with regards to a COCO Aggressor platform…..if they decide they need one.
Outside of the UK, I feel Europe is on the brink of becoming the next battleground for larger scale COCO aggressor platform operations.
Outside of the UK, I feel Europe is on the brink of becoming the next battleground for larger scale COCO aggressor platform operations.
Europe through the EDA and its members are probably more agile, less susceptible to decision paralysis, and actually see the benefit of live training. Just as well the UK remained a third country through bilateral administrative arrangements post-BREXIT where UK industry can benefit and partake programmes..................oh wait.
Or the parallels with Nimrod MRA4, where it too didn't have a valid safety case; and when the task was eventually resurrected it was discovered that the warnings of 1995 were correct - it could never be valid?
How could the Hawk and Glider teams, or anyone remotely connected with them, have passed supposedly robust MAA audits since 2010?
Yet another fleet being scrapped, or perhaps given away to someone who knows how to do the job, yet no-one seems answerable. Am I alone in suspecting the money 'saved' is earmarked for other aircraft fleets which have similar problems and are deemed more important?
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Concur, Air Cap at HWY will miss the boat and be last to market as they believe everything should be synthetic even though GLADIATOR and TFST are far from what was promised. I genuinely don't know how you can replace circa 5,000hrs plus with pure synthetics in the next 8 years let alone 8 months?
Europe through the EDA and its members are probably more agile, less susceptible to decision paralysis, and actually see the benefit of live training. Just as well the UK remained a third country through bilateral administrative arrangements post-BREXIT where UK industry can benefit and partake programmes..................oh wait.
Europe through the EDA and its members are probably more agile, less susceptible to decision paralysis, and actually see the benefit of live training. Just as well the UK remained a third country through bilateral administrative arrangements post-BREXIT where UK industry can benefit and partake programmes..................oh wait.
I’m chuckling at the mess that’s going to unfold in terms of aggressor provision when the Ton folds. 9 Sqn is on its knees and has been for some time.
I suppose the only chance of a sane, rational decision to be made would be a COCO aggressor option - and quickly.
It was referred to as the HS Tercel in a House of Commons adjournment debate on the RAF in April 1973: Mr. McNair-Wilson '...From falcons of a feathery kind I turn to the new RAF aircraft to be called after the falcon's offspring, the Hawker Siddeley 1182 trainer, the Tercel. I have only one question to ask my hon. Friend. When is this aircraft likely to come into service? It is clearly an important trainer aircraft in the RAF training programme and I should like to have an idea of when the RAF will be given it.'...
The same debate has an MP calling for a DHFS style concentration of basic helicopter training and that the TWU and 4 FTS be co-located when they receive the HS 1182.
Perhaps the change was an early example of RAF wokeness - a tercel being a male hawk. Assumes NBCD State 1 Condition Zulu Alpha ...
The same debate has an MP calling for a DHFS style concentration of basic helicopter training and that the TWU and 4 FTS be co-located when they receive the HS 1182.
Perhaps the change was an early example of RAF wokeness - a tercel being a male hawk.
Assumes NBCD State 1 Condition Zulu Alpha ...This, by the by, fitted with a policy choice of a few years previously which was that combat-capable aircraft should be named after birds of prey - this led to the confirmation of Harrier for the P1127, and the F-111K would've been the Merlin GR1. Multinational programmes weren't covered by this short-lived edict (hence Jaguar and Panther/Tornado).
"...customarily named after seats of learning or had some educational etymology (Harvard, Oxford, Balliol, Tutor, Proctor, Provost, etc, etc),..."
Not forgetting those 'famous seats of learning' Chipmunk, Bulldog, Jestream, and Gnat....Ooops.
Batco
Not forgetting those 'famous seats of learning' Chipmunk, Bulldog, Jestream, and Gnat....Ooops.
Batco
'Bulldog' is the nickname for Oxford University proctor's officers, once known as the University Police.
So it has some relevance.
So it has some relevance.
Last edited by BEagle; 17th Jul 2021 at 12:21.
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