Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

All Hawk T1s will be gone by 31 March 2022

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

All Hawk T1s will be gone by 31 March 2022

Old 12th Jul 2021, 08:26
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Westnoreastsouth
Posts: 1,368
The story I heard was that 'Tercel' was the winning name but that the Management/RAF preferred the simpler 'Hawk' - it does roll off the tongue much easier than tercel
longer ron is offline  
Old 12th Jul 2021, 10:24
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 332
Originally Posted by longer ron View Post
The story I heard was that 'Tercel' was the winning name but that the Management/RAF preferred the simpler 'Hawk' - it does roll off the tongue much easier than tercel
It was referred to as the HS Tercel in a House of Commons adjournment debate on the RAF in April 1973: Mr. McNair-Wilson '...From falcons of a feathery kind I turn to the new RAF aircraft to be called after the falcon's offspring, the Hawker Siddeley 1182 trainer, the Tercel. I have only one question to ask my hon. Friend. When is this aircraft likely to come into service? It is clearly an important trainer aircraft in the RAF training programme and I should like to have an idea of when the RAF will be given it.'...

The same debate has an MP calling for a DHFS style concentration of basic helicopter training and that the TWU and 4 FTS be co-located when they receive the HS 1182.

Perhaps the change was an early example of RAF wokeness - a tercel being a male hawk. Assumes NBCD State 1 Condition Zulu Alpha ...


SLXOwft is offline  
Old 13th Jul 2021, 15:41
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 54
It's interesting that one of the students (I think there may have been 4 of them ?) on the very first Hawk course at RAF Valley (probably 1977 ?) is still taking the Queen's shilling as the Hawk T1 is about to end it's service. Having flown the Canberra, Hawk T1 (as a QFI) and the Tonka he swapped uniform to fly the 747 with Virgin. He subsequently came back into the fold as a Tutor man with both 5AEF and CUAS QFI at Wittering. Good old Tim, just as smiley as he ever was !
Idle Reverse is offline  
Old 13th Jul 2021, 18:50
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Westnoreastsouth
Posts: 1,368
I certainly made a reasonable living out of Hawks (various marks) as a Rigger.
I helped introduce them into the weapons training role at RAF Brandy in 1977-80 as a fairly experienced J/T.Over the subsequent 35 years of what could laughingly be called my 'career' I probably did another 13 years on and off Hawks,by the time I quit working in 2015 there were probably not many techies still working on Hawks who had done the original Manufacturers 'Q' course at Dunsfold .
My last job 'somewhere in wiltshire' had a very eclectic Aircraft Fleet and I was qualified to work on 3 other aircraft types but always ended up being magnetted back to Hawks owing to my experience - it was a shame that the corporate management did not value the experience of us old wrinklies LOL (bitter ? - Moi ? ).
longer ron is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2021, 07:41
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 856
...
Well, come April 1st 2022, they won't have to wonder whether the seats have been serviced to MB standards or MoD standards.

LFH
...
Lordflasheart is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2021, 08:09
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Sussex
Age: 79
Posts: 4,493
Originally Posted by Lordflasheart View Post
...
Well, come April 1st 2022, they won't have to wonder whether the seats have been serviced to MB standards or MoD standards.

LFH
...
MBA standards require seat bays, which rather leaves us with MOD 'standards'.
Chugalug2 is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2021, 22:43
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Horsham, England, UK. ---o--O--o---
Posts: 1,151
Snoop

This seems like a mistake to me! A relatively cheap aeroplane to operate. Why not allocate a couple to each Squadron as “Squadron Hacks” to keep their pilots hours and experience levels up.

Cheaper than always using the frontline aircraft and more realistic plus G experience. Better than just pure simulator time and a few hours on their Typhoon's.
Out Of Trim is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2021, 23:11
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The Jungle
Posts: 201
Originally Posted by Out Of Trim View Post
This seems like a mistake to me! A relatively cheap aeroplane to operate. Why not allocate a couple to each Squadron as “Squadron Hacks” to keep their pilots hours and experience levels up.

Cheaper than always using the frontline aircraft and more realistic plus G experience. Better than just pure simulator time and a few hours on their Typhoon's.
It wouldn’t save money. The RAF would have to entice a lot of civilian engineers to move and it’s likely many wouldn’t move. The serviceability and spares are an increasing issue.
Foghorn Leghorn is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2021, 06:29
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Sussex
Age: 79
Posts: 4,493
FH :-
The serviceability and spares are an increasing issue.
No doubt, but the last I heard was that the seat had no safety case and hence both it and the aircraft it is fitted in were unairworthy. Has that changed, and if so how?

Chugalug2 is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2021, 06:37
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The 24th & a Half Century
Posts: 173
Originally Posted by Foghorn Leghorn View Post
It wouldn’t save money. The RAF would have to entice a lot of civilian engineers to move and it’s likely many wouldn’t move. The serviceability and spares are an increasing issue.
Exactly! Both BAE and RR have no real interest in prolonging T1 at mass, if you look at the past 24 months and the support contract negotiations debacle you can see why. MOD wanting more without paying for it, in this case >T2 hrs without a compensatory reduction in T1 hrs. Besides, the Air System Safety Case (ASSC) is also a bag of nails and I'd confidently state that any current COCO provision would provide a platform whose risk is more ALARP. That's before you look at training effects.........
DuckDodgers is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2021, 06:57
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The Jungle
Posts: 201
Originally Posted by DuckDodgers View Post
Exactly! Both BAE and RR have no real interest in prolonging T1 at mass, if you look at the past 24 months and the support contract negotiations debacle you can see why. MOD wanting more without paying for it, in this case >T2 hrs without a compensatory reduction in T1 hrs. Besides, the Air System Safety Case (ASSC) is also a bag of nails and I'd confidently state that any current COCO provision would provide a platform whose risk is more ALARP. That's before you look at training effects.........
Thanks DD. It’ll be really quite interesting to see where the RAF/Navy (MoD/Treasury) go next with regards to a COCO Aggressor platform…..if they decide they need one.

Outside of the UK, I feel Europe is on the brink of becoming the next battleground for larger scale COCO aggressor platform operations.
Foghorn Leghorn is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2021, 07:29
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The 24th & a Half Century
Posts: 173
Originally Posted by Foghorn Leghorn View Post
Thanks DD. It’ll be really quite interesting to see where the RAF/Navy (MoD/Treasury) go next with regards to a COCO Aggressor platform…..if they decide they need one.

Outside of the UK, I feel Europe is on the brink of becoming the next battleground for larger scale COCO aggressor platform operations.
Concur, Air Cap at HWY will miss the boat and be last to market as they believe everything should be synthetic even though GLADIATOR and TFST are far from what was promised. I genuinely don't know how you can replace circa 5,000hrs plus with pure synthetics in the next 8 years let alone 8 months?

Europe through the EDA and its members are probably more agile, less susceptible to decision paralysis, and actually see the benefit of live training. Just as well the UK remained a third country through bilateral administrative arrangements post-BREXIT where UK industry can benefit and partake programmes..................oh wait.
DuckDodgers is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2021, 11:03
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 2,993
Originally Posted by DuckDodgers View Post
Besides, the Air System Safety Case (ASSC) is also a bag of nails and I'd confidently state that any current COCO provision would provide a platform whose risk is more ALARP. That's before you look at training effects.........
So, 10 years after Sean Cunningham died, when it was obvious any safety case could not be valid, and it was later admitted one couldn't be found, we've progressed to it's a bag of nails. Does anyone in MoD see the link to the demise of the ATC gliders, managed by the same people?

Or the parallels with Nimrod MRA4, where it too didn't have a valid safety case; and when the task was eventually resurrected it was discovered that the warnings of 1995 were correct - it could never be valid?

How could the Hawk and Glider teams, or anyone remotely connected with them, have passed supposedly robust MAA audits since 2010?

Yet another fleet being scrapped, or perhaps given away to someone who knows how to do the job, yet no-one seems answerable. Am I alone in suspecting the money 'saved' is earmarked for other aircraft fleets which have similar problems and are deemed more important?
tucumseh is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2021, 18:48
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The Jungle
Posts: 201
Originally Posted by DuckDodgers View Post
Concur, Air Cap at HWY will miss the boat and be last to market as they believe everything should be synthetic even though GLADIATOR and TFST are far from what was promised. I genuinely don't know how you can replace circa 5,000hrs plus with pure synthetics in the next 8 years let alone 8 months?

Europe through the EDA and its members are probably more agile, less susceptible to decision paralysis, and actually see the benefit of live training. Just as well the UK remained a third country through bilateral administrative arrangements post-BREXIT where UK industry can benefit and partake programmes..................oh wait.
We all know that you can’t replace 5000 hours with synthetics. Unfortunately, the hierarchy will not back down even though everything tells them its wrong. Sure, use synthetics to supplement, but not replace.

I’m chuckling at the mess that’s going to unfold in terms of aggressor provision when the Ton folds. 9 Sqn is on its knees and has been for some time.

I suppose the only chance of a sane, rational decision to be made would be a COCO aggressor option - and quickly.
Foghorn Leghorn is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2021, 20:34
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Swindonshire
Posts: 1,971
Originally Posted by SLXOwft View Post
It was referred to as the HS Tercel in a House of Commons adjournment debate on the RAF in April 1973: Mr. McNair-Wilson '...From falcons of a feathery kind I turn to the new RAF aircraft to be called after the falcon's offspring, the Hawker Siddeley 1182 trainer, the Tercel. I have only one question to ask my hon. Friend. When is this aircraft likely to come into service? It is clearly an important trainer aircraft in the RAF training programme and I should like to have an idea of when the RAF will be given it.'...

The same debate has an MP calling for a DHFS style concentration of basic helicopter training and that the TWU and 4 FTS be co-located when they receive the HS 1182.

Perhaps the change was an early example of RAF wokeness - a tercel being a male hawk. Assumes NBCD State 1 Condition Zulu Alpha ...
Roy Braybrook's history of the Hawk (published in 1984) suggests that the Tercel name was chosen by staff, but their Airships had already started the process of identifying an appropriate name; although there was advice that the RAF's training aircraft were customarily named after seats of learning or had some educational etymology (Harvard, Oxford, Balliol, Tutor, Proctor, Provost, etc, etc), the investigation into possible names concluded that 'Hawk' was appropriate.

This, by the by, fitted with a policy choice of a few years previously which was that combat-capable aircraft should be named after birds of prey - this led to the confirmation of Harrier for the P1127, and the F-111K would've been the Merlin GR1. Multinational programmes weren't covered by this short-lived edict (hence Jaguar and Panther/Tornado).
Archimedes is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2021, 05:00
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: one side of la Manche
Posts: 152
"...customarily named after seats of learning or had some educational etymology (Harvard, Oxford, Balliol, Tutor, Proctor, Provost, etc, etc),..."
Not forgetting those 'famous seats of learning' Chipmunk, Bulldog, Jestream, and Gnat....Ooops.

Batco
BATCO is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2021, 07:45
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 25,921
'Bulldog' is the nickname for Oxford University proctor's officers, once known as the University Police.

So it has some relevance.

Last edited by BEagle; 17th Jul 2021 at 12:21.
BEagle is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2021, 10:43
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Richmond N Yorks
Posts: 181
Varsity, Dominie?
Get me some traffic is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2021, 11:09
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Behind You...
Posts: 25
varsity

/ˈvɑːsɪti/



noun

noun: varsity; plural noun: varsities
  1. dated•British
university.

dominie

/ˈdɒmɪni/

noun

noun: dominie; plural noun: dominies
  1. 1.
Scottish
a schoolmaster.

Google is your friend....
teej013 is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2021, 12:35
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 25,921
Also Miles Magister, Master, Mentor and the unsuccessful Miles Student!

As well as Harvard, Prentice.
BEagle is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.