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All Hawk T1s will be gone by 31 March 2022

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All Hawk T1s will be gone by 31 March 2022

Old 19th Nov 2021, 11:51
  #261 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Foghorn Leghorn View Post
3rd Gen aircraft I would venture as a 1990s solution. PD radar incapable of robust track files beyond 60nm against a 2 tank Typhoon and incapable of high fastÖ.amongst other things.

What is deemed good enough - Gripen. 4th Gen capabilities such as an advanced mech scan radar or, optimally, an AESA. The ability to run high fast profiles and their normal profiles at 0.9MÖ.amongst other things.

The competition being run is for a 90s solution to a 2020+ problem. Thatís the cold hard truth of it.
Can't disagree, but as with everything, they (Air Cap) do not want to pay for it. PS-05/A mk4 is a very capable system...
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Old 19th Nov 2021, 15:13
  #262 (permalink)  
 
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Here's an idea that needs no new money: bring the Typhoons home from the Middle East (and arguably the Falklands too if the GBAD modernisation is all done) and use a small fraction of the flying hours saved to increase in-house red air provision. Offer some to our continental and USAFE neighbours to generate dissimilar training. Flex the provision up and down to reflect the needs of the day without becoming tied in to a contract. Avoid a regulatory and requirement-setting nightmare. Grow rather more useful airmanship and experience than can be developed burning holes in the sky over the desert. Reduce the crippling deployment burden at the same time. Slow down consumption of Typhoon fleet life to give half a chance of it overlapping with Tempest, given the anaemic funding profile the latter programme is currently saddled with.

All it needs is someone to weigh up the supposed operational benefit of the Middle East and Falklands deployments against the cost and risks of knackering Typhoon and contracting in red air, and the enhanced deterrent value of a well-trained fighter force in NATO's northern region...

Last edited by Easy Street; 19th Nov 2021 at 15:23.
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Old 19th Nov 2021, 18:13
  #263 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Easy Street View Post
Here's an idea that needs no new money: bring the Typhoons home from the Middle East (and arguably the Falklands too if the GBAD modernisation is all done) and use a small fraction of the flying hours saved to increase in-house red air provision. Offer some to our continental and USAFE neighbours to generate dissimilar training. Flex the provision up and down to reflect the needs of the day without becoming tied in to a contract. Avoid a regulatory and requirement-setting nightmare. Grow rather more useful airmanship and experience than can be developed burning holes in the sky over the desert. Reduce the crippling deployment burden at the same time. Slow down consumption of Typhoon fleet life to give half a chance of it overlapping with Tempest, given the anaemic funding profile the latter programme is currently saddled with.

All it needs is someone to weigh up the supposed operational benefit of the Middle East and Falklands deployments against the cost and risks of knackering Typhoon and contracting in red air, and the enhanced deterrent value of a well-trained fighter force in NATO's northern region...
You know as well we all do that Typhoon flying lines on the SHADER ATO is now just a political token effort. Just like it always was for Tornado GR4 in the ME in the past when there wasnít a specific operation that was kinetic. On one level I canít argue with it because it does justify funding or at least routes for funding due to it being deployed. One only has to look at the demise of Harrier. They argued fiercely to come home from HERRICK to regenerate. They were granted their wish and as soon as they did they were in trouble as they couldnít justify or generate funding as the platform wasnít in the politicians eye or in an operational Th. GR4 was and the rest is history. Granted there were some twists and turns along the way.

There is still airmanship and experience to be gained from deploying to SHADER, I would argue that outweighs the experience of flying as Red Air; so I can also see the flip side of contracting it out. Nobody will have to fly Red so all the experience will be done as Blue, which is a win.

The contract has to be written and set properly, which is within the MoDís gift, but they often execute it poorly. I imagine the companies that bid for it wonít take the micky on the scale that BAE do. As I understand it, this is an interim contract before we get to the real Red Air contract which will be Next Gen Operational Training; successor to ASDOT. Which occurs in a few years time.

Interesting thought though, Easy Street. On balance Iím for a Red Air contract though.
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Old 19th Nov 2021, 18:47
  #264 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Foghorn Leghorn View Post
You know as well we all do that Typhoon flying lines on the SHADER ATO is now just a political token effort. Just like it always was for Tornado GR4 in the ME in the past when there wasnít a specific operation that was kinetic. On one level I canít argue with it because it does justify funding or at least routes for funding due to it being deployed. One only has to look at the demise of Harrier. They argued fiercely to come home from HERRICK to regenerate. They were granted their wish and as soon as they did they were in trouble as they couldnít justify or generate funding as the platform wasnít in the politicians eye or in an operational Th. GR4 was and the rest is history. Granted there were some twists and turns along the way.

There is still airmanship and experience to be gained from deploying to SHADER, I would argue that outweighs the experience of flying as Red Air; so I can also see the flip side of contracting it out. Nobody will have to fly Red so all the experience will be done as Blue, which is a win.

The contract has to be written and set properly, which is within the MoDís gift, but they often execute it poorly. I imagine the companies that bid for it wonít take the micky on the scale that BAE do. As I understand it, this is an interim contract before we get to the real Red Air contract which will be Next Gen Operational Training; successor to ASDOT. Which occurs in a few years time.

Interesting thought though, Easy Street. On balance Iím for a Red Air contract though.
At least ARES know what theyíre doing. M2K-5 in addition to the other M2Ks is the answer if youíre canít get Gripen.
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Old 19th Nov 2021, 21:21
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Originally Posted by DuckDodgers View Post
At least ARES know what theyíre doing. M2K-5 in addition to the other M2Ks is the answer if youíre canít get Gripen.
Youre not wrong! M2Ks would be an excellent Red platform. Good luck to ARES in France for the FAF aggressor role.
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Old 19th Nov 2021, 21:27
  #266 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Foghorn Leghorn View Post
You know as well we all do that Typhoon flying lines on the SHADER ATO is now just a political token effort. Just like it always was for Tornado GR4 in the ME in the past when there wasnít a specific operation that was kinetic. On one level I canít argue with it because it does justify funding or at least routes for funding due to it being deployed. One only has to look at the demise of Harrier.
Harrier was different in that there were three FJ fleets; reducing to two was unavoidable at that point. No way on this earth would withdrawal of Typhoon from the ME put either it (and our air defence capability) or F35 (and carrier strike) at risk.

Moreover I think the opportunity exists for a bold leader to finally call out the "use it or lose it" mentality. There was a lengthy report a few years back - Chilcot I think the chairman's name was - which specifically pointed to the pursuit of influence with the US as a poor justification for the use of military force, and drew attention to the practice of entryism by commanders keen to see their forces used, for reasons stretching from protection against cuts, to gaining operational experience, to bolstering morale of under-used soldiers. It was all very critical and the MOD civil service still likes to make a fuss about having implemented its recommendations.

Finally, according to the Integrated Operating Concept, all 'live' training has operational effect in this new world of the so-called grey zone. Through that lens, some high-end exercising with allies at home might just do more for our national policy objectives than pissing about on SHADER. Put all that together and there is an open goal waiting for the case for withdrawal to be made.
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Old 19th Nov 2021, 22:00
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Originally Posted by Easy Street View Post
Harrier was different in that there were three FJ fleets; reducing to two was unavoidable at that point. No way on this earth would withdrawal of Typhoon from the ME put either it (and our air defence capability) or F35 (and carrier strike) at risk.

Moreover I think the opportunity exists for a bold leader to finally call out the "use it or lose it" mentality. There was a lengthy report a few years back - Chilcot I think the chairman's name was - which specifically pointed to the pursuit of influence with the US as a poor justification for the use of military force, and drew attention to the practice of entryism by commanders keen to see their forces used, for reasons stretching from protection against cuts, to gaining operational experience, to bolstering morale of under-used soldiers. It was all very critical and the MOD civil service still likes to make a fuss about having implemented its recommendations.

Finally, according to the Integrated Operating Concept, all 'live' training has operational effect in this new world of the so-called grey zone. Through that lens, some high-end exercising with allies at home might just do more for our national policy objectives than pissing about on SHADER. Put all that together and there is an open goal waiting for the case for withdrawal to be made.
The Harrier had its coffin sealed when it argued to come out of Afghan. If it hadnít then it would have stood a far greater chance of survival against the GR4 fleet.

There is Ďhigh-endí training already conducted at home with allies as you know, given the exercises that are conducted. More would just increase the tempo of work and, essentially, get in the way of essential training that needs to be conducted at a squadron level. The notion that more high-end training at home would be better is a fallacy. Thereís a huge training burden on squadrons already and having commitments would get in the way of the more basic training and CRWUs.

Some of the flying on SHADER is pi$$ing, around, as you put it, some of it not so much.
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Old 10th Dec 2021, 06:00
  #268 (permalink)  
 
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Looks like MOD have only just realised that JTAC students at JFACTSU needs live controls with hot drop......who'd have thought that with the Hawk T1 retirement?

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Old 10th Dec 2021, 08:01
  #269 (permalink)  
 
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The requirement is almost comedy

Wonder why they still need to do 'hot' training?

and Strafe might be more relevant than BDU-33 these days!

What is the contract with the Chobham Da-42 for FAC work?


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Old 10th Dec 2021, 08:43
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Originally Posted by DuckDodgers View Post
Looks like MOD have only just realised that JTAC students at JFACTSU needs live controls with hot drop......who'd have thought that with the Hawk T1 retirement?
The comedy of errors list grows by the week.........

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Old 10th Dec 2021, 09:43
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Originally Posted by typerated View Post
The requirement is almost comedy

Wonder why they still need to do 'hot' training?

and Strafe might be more relevant than BDU-33 these days!

What is the contract with the Chobham Da-42 for FAC work?
It does seem to be a bit archaic to do hot runs with dumb weapons. With LGTRs Iíd buy it.

Good luck trying to find a company to satisfy all of those requirements by Summer 2022.
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Old 10th Dec 2021, 09:45
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Originally Posted by GeeRam View Post
The comedy of errors list grows by the week.........
Wait until the Navy wake up and realise that 736 has gone as well with no follow on capability to fill that voidÖ.
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Old 10th Dec 2021, 10:07
  #273 (permalink)  
 
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Has someone ever suggested to the MOD it was about time it was shut down, and its role was put out to tender
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Old 10th Dec 2021, 12:41
  #274 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Foghorn Leghorn View Post
Wait until the Navy wake up and realise that 736 has gone as well with no follow on capability to fill that voidÖ.
of an entirely unrepresentative threat, in a very constrained operating area, that by the end was mainly about letting the old and bold re-live their glory days, and letting youngsters have time in a FW jet?

thereís plenty of capability to fill the void, it just doesnít involve pilots.
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Old 10th Dec 2021, 13:07
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Originally Posted by alfred_the_great View Post
of an entirely unrepresentative threat, in a very constrained operating area, that by the end was mainly about letting the old and bold re-live their glory days, and letting youngsters have time in a FW jet?

thereís plenty of capability to fill the void, it just doesnít involve pilots.
There really isnít a full spectrum capability that is able to reliably and sustainably fill the void on 1 April. So yeah, fast jets it is.
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Old 10th Dec 2021, 13:12
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Originally Posted by Foghorn Leghorn View Post
There really isnít a full spectrum capability that is able to reliably and sustainably fill the void on 1 April. So yeah, fast jets it is.
given that the most demanding threat can only really be replicated entirely synthetically, Iíd rather pay for better computer programmes than FJ.
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Old 10th Dec 2021, 13:54
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Originally Posted by alfred_the_great View Post
given that the most demanding threat can only really be replicated entirely synthetically, Iíd rather pay for better computer programmes than FJ.
Just as well you donít make the decisions.
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Old 17th Feb 2022, 07:07
  #278 (permalink)  
 
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At least they painted a jet before The Ton disbands.
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Old 17th Feb 2022, 08:46
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Originally Posted by Foghorn Leghorn View Post
Just as well you donít make the decisions.
Just out of interest - given a choice - Would you rather have a 'real' and capable aggressor force - or Spadeadam EW range?

I'm surprised that Spade didn't get the chop before 100Sqn
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Old 17th Feb 2022, 10:10
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Originally Posted by typerated View Post
Just out of interest - given a choice - Would you rather have a 'real' and capable aggressor force - or Spadeadam EW range?

I'm surprised that Spade didn't get the chop before 100Sqn
It will be interesting to see what MUSTANG delivers within NGOT as both are constituent parts to Phase 2 delivering:

1) Next Gen Aggressor.
2) Next Gen EW.
3) A silent target for renegade / zombie.
4) A UAV threat.
5) Next Gen EW range / systems (mobile).
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