All Hawk T1s will be gone by 31 March 2022
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3rd Gen aircraft I would venture as a 1990s solution. PD radar incapable of robust track files beyond 60nm against a 2 tank Typhoon and incapable of high fast….amongst other things.
What is deemed good enough - Gripen. 4th Gen capabilities such as an advanced mech scan radar or, optimally, an AESA. The ability to run high fast profiles and their normal profiles at 0.9M….amongst other things.
The competition being run is for a 90s solution to a 2020+ problem. That’s the cold hard truth of it.
What is deemed good enough - Gripen. 4th Gen capabilities such as an advanced mech scan radar or, optimally, an AESA. The ability to run high fast profiles and their normal profiles at 0.9M….amongst other things.
The competition being run is for a 90s solution to a 2020+ problem. That’s the cold hard truth of it.
Here's an idea that needs no new money: bring the Typhoons home from the Middle East (and arguably the Falklands too if the GBAD modernisation is all done) and use a small fraction of the flying hours saved to increase in-house red air provision. Offer some to our continental and USAFE neighbours to generate dissimilar training. Flex the provision up and down to reflect the needs of the day without becoming tied in to a contract. Avoid a regulatory and requirement-setting nightmare. Grow rather more useful airmanship and experience than can be developed burning holes in the sky over the desert. Reduce the crippling deployment burden at the same time. Slow down consumption of Typhoon fleet life to give half a chance of it overlapping with Tempest, given the anaemic funding profile the latter programme is currently saddled with.
All it needs is someone to weigh up the supposed operational benefit of the Middle East and Falklands deployments against the cost and risks of knackering Typhoon and contracting in red air, and the enhanced deterrent value of a well-trained fighter force in NATO's northern region...
All it needs is someone to weigh up the supposed operational benefit of the Middle East and Falklands deployments against the cost and risks of knackering Typhoon and contracting in red air, and the enhanced deterrent value of a well-trained fighter force in NATO's northern region...
Last edited by Easy Street; 19th Nov 2021 at 15:23.
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Here's an idea that needs no new money: bring the Typhoons home from the Middle East (and arguably the Falklands too if the GBAD modernisation is all done) and use a small fraction of the flying hours saved to increase in-house red air provision. Offer some to our continental and USAFE neighbours to generate dissimilar training. Flex the provision up and down to reflect the needs of the day without becoming tied in to a contract. Avoid a regulatory and requirement-setting nightmare. Grow rather more useful airmanship and experience than can be developed burning holes in the sky over the desert. Reduce the crippling deployment burden at the same time. Slow down consumption of Typhoon fleet life to give half a chance of it overlapping with Tempest, given the anaemic funding profile the latter programme is currently saddled with.
All it needs is someone to weigh up the supposed operational benefit of the Middle East and Falklands deployments against the cost and risks of knackering Typhoon and contracting in red air, and the enhanced deterrent value of a well-trained fighter force in NATO's northern region...
All it needs is someone to weigh up the supposed operational benefit of the Middle East and Falklands deployments against the cost and risks of knackering Typhoon and contracting in red air, and the enhanced deterrent value of a well-trained fighter force in NATO's northern region...
There is still airmanship and experience to be gained from deploying to SHADER, I would argue that outweighs the experience of flying as Red Air; so I can also see the flip side of contracting it out. Nobody will have to fly Red so all the experience will be done as Blue, which is a win.
The contract has to be written and set properly, which is within the MoD’s gift, but they often execute it poorly. I imagine the companies that bid for it won’t take the micky on the scale that BAE do. As I understand it, this is an interim contract before we get to the real Red Air contract which will be Next Gen Operational Training; successor to ASDOT. Which occurs in a few years time.
Interesting thought though, Easy Street. On balance I’m for a Red Air contract though.
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You know as well we all do that Typhoon flying lines on the SHADER ATO is now just a political token effort. Just like it always was for Tornado GR4 in the ME in the past when there wasn’t a specific operation that was kinetic. On one level I can’t argue with it because it does justify funding or at least routes for funding due to it being deployed. One only has to look at the demise of Harrier. They argued fiercely to come home from HERRICK to regenerate. They were granted their wish and as soon as they did they were in trouble as they couldn’t justify or generate funding as the platform wasn’t in the politicians eye or in an operational Th. GR4 was and the rest is history. Granted there were some twists and turns along the way.
There is still airmanship and experience to be gained from deploying to SHADER, I would argue that outweighs the experience of flying as Red Air; so I can also see the flip side of contracting it out. Nobody will have to fly Red so all the experience will be done as Blue, which is a win.
The contract has to be written and set properly, which is within the MoD’s gift, but they often execute it poorly. I imagine the companies that bid for it won’t take the micky on the scale that BAE do. As I understand it, this is an interim contract before we get to the real Red Air contract which will be Next Gen Operational Training; successor to ASDOT. Which occurs in a few years time.
Interesting thought though, Easy Street. On balance I’m for a Red Air contract though.
There is still airmanship and experience to be gained from deploying to SHADER, I would argue that outweighs the experience of flying as Red Air; so I can also see the flip side of contracting it out. Nobody will have to fly Red so all the experience will be done as Blue, which is a win.
The contract has to be written and set properly, which is within the MoD’s gift, but they often execute it poorly. I imagine the companies that bid for it won’t take the micky on the scale that BAE do. As I understand it, this is an interim contract before we get to the real Red Air contract which will be Next Gen Operational Training; successor to ASDOT. Which occurs in a few years time.
Interesting thought though, Easy Street. On balance I’m for a Red Air contract though.
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You know as well we all do that Typhoon flying lines on the SHADER ATO is now just a political token effort. Just like it always was for Tornado GR4 in the ME in the past when there wasn’t a specific operation that was kinetic. On one level I can’t argue with it because it does justify funding or at least routes for funding due to it being deployed. One only has to look at the demise of Harrier.
Moreover I think the opportunity exists for a bold leader to finally call out the "use it or lose it" mentality. There was a lengthy report a few years back - Chilcot I think the chairman's name was
- which specifically pointed to the pursuit of influence with the US as a poor justification for the use of military force, and drew attention to the practice of entryism by commanders keen to see their forces used, for reasons stretching from protection against cuts, to gaining operational experience, to bolstering morale of under-used soldiers. It was all very critical and the MOD civil service still likes to make a fuss about having implemented its recommendations.Finally, according to the Integrated Operating Concept, all 'live' training has operational effect in this new world of the so-called grey zone. Through that lens, some high-end exercising with allies at home might just do more for our national policy objectives than pissing about on SHADER. Put all that together and there is an open goal waiting for the case for withdrawal to be made.
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Harrier was different in that there were three FJ fleets; reducing to two was unavoidable at that point. No way on this earth would withdrawal of Typhoon from the ME put either it (and our air defence capability) or F35 (and carrier strike) at risk.
Moreover I think the opportunity exists for a bold leader to finally call out the "use it or lose it" mentality. There was a lengthy report a few years back - Chilcot I think the chairman's name was - which specifically pointed to the pursuit of influence with the US as a poor justification for the use of military force, and drew attention to the practice of entryism by commanders keen to see their forces used, for reasons stretching from protection against cuts, to gaining operational experience, to bolstering morale of under-used soldiers. It was all very critical and the MOD civil service still likes to make a fuss about having implemented its recommendations.
Finally, according to the Integrated Operating Concept, all 'live' training has operational effect in this new world of the so-called grey zone. Through that lens, some high-end exercising with allies at home might just do more for our national policy objectives than pissing about on SHADER. Put all that together and there is an open goal waiting for the case for withdrawal to be made.
Moreover I think the opportunity exists for a bold leader to finally call out the "use it or lose it" mentality. There was a lengthy report a few years back - Chilcot I think the chairman's name was
- which specifically pointed to the pursuit of influence with the US as a poor justification for the use of military force, and drew attention to the practice of entryism by commanders keen to see their forces used, for reasons stretching from protection against cuts, to gaining operational experience, to bolstering morale of under-used soldiers. It was all very critical and the MOD civil service still likes to make a fuss about having implemented its recommendations.Finally, according to the Integrated Operating Concept, all 'live' training has operational effect in this new world of the so-called grey zone. Through that lens, some high-end exercising with allies at home might just do more for our national policy objectives than pissing about on SHADER. Put all that together and there is an open goal waiting for the case for withdrawal to be made.
There is ‘high-end’ training already conducted at home with allies as you know, given the exercises that are conducted. More would just increase the tempo of work and, essentially, get in the way of essential training that needs to be conducted at a squadron level. The notion that more high-end training at home would be better is a fallacy. There’s a huge training burden on squadrons already and having commitments would get in the way of the more basic training and CRWUs.
Some of the flying on SHADER is pi$$ing, around, as you put it, some of it not so much.
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Looks like MOD have only just realised that JTAC students at JFACTSU needs live controls with hot drop......who'd have thought that with the Hawk T1 retirement? 
The requirement is almost comedy
Wonder why they still need to do 'hot' training?
and Strafe might be more relevant than BDU-33 these days!
What is the contract with the Chobham Da-42 for FAC work?
Wonder why they still need to do 'hot' training?
and Strafe might be more relevant than BDU-33 these days!
What is the contract with the Chobham Da-42 for FAC work?
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Good luck trying to find a company to satisfy all of those requirements by Summer 2022.
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there’s plenty of capability to fill the void, it just doesn’t involve pilots.
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of an entirely unrepresentative threat, in a very constrained operating area, that by the end was mainly about letting the old and bold re-live their glory days, and letting youngsters have time in a FW jet?
there’s plenty of capability to fill the void, it just doesn’t involve pilots.
there’s plenty of capability to fill the void, it just doesn’t involve pilots.
given that the most demanding threat can only really be replicated entirely synthetically, I’d rather pay for better computer programmes than FJ.
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1) Next Gen Aggressor.
2) Next Gen EW.
3) A silent target for renegade / zombie.
4) A UAV threat.
5) Next Gen EW range / systems (mobile).