All Hawk T1s will be gone by 31 March 2022

[Big Pistons Forever]

Originally Posted by Foghorn Leghorn

I think the wider issue will be the ability to find and then fly aircraft under either the CAA or MAA framework in such a short space of time. Never mind the small print in the contract!

Not being able to meet contract requirements has never been a problem. Has Ascent ever made any of their promised output ?

[DuckDodgers]

Originally Posted by 8674planes

Could it be possible for Hawker Hunter Aviation at RAF Scampton to make a bid? I believe they currently fly two Hunter F.58's and a T.72 for threat simulation and trials work already. Plus they have a Buccaneer, SU22 and Phantom waiting for a suitable contract too....

In a word, no. The Bucc will never fly, ditto the Fitter. As for the Phantom, that’s a parts bird with many systems removed. Quite rightly the Dept of State made the determination not to approve the transfer of the flyer that’s still in Germany.

[DuckDodgers]

Originally Posted by rattman

ATAC were supposed to be buying the RAAF F-18's but thats gone dark, haven't seen anything official but seems anyone with any knowledge has said the deal is off

As mentioned elsewhere, Kirlin at Air USA hasn’t the funds to a) acquire them and b) put a new centre barrel in them. They’re pretty much at the end unless this is done.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Originally Posted by 8674planes

Could it be possible for Hawker Hunter Aviation at RAF Scampton to make a bid? I believe they currently fly two Hunter F.58's and a T.72 for threat simulation and trials work already. Plus they have a Buccaneer, SU22 and Phantom waiting for a suitable contract too....

Looking at the requirements, that number of aircraft wouldn’t be able to service a 4 turn 4 turn 4 daily programme and 2400 hours per year without some serious engineering. It would be a far too costly operation I suspect.

That being said, there’s nothing stopping them bidding if they can get their hands on some other aircraft. Similarly, there’s nothing stopping many companies bidding, I suspect they’d get whittled down pretty quickly though. I think it’ll come down to the usual suspects like Top Aces, Draken possibly Air USA and, as Duck Dodgers mentioned, there could be a BAE bid in there.

Does anyone know when we will hear who is bidding?

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by Foghorn Leghorn

and, as Duck Dodgers mentioned, there could be a BAE bid in there.

In many ways, that would seem the most likely to work given the requirements, of CAA/MAA and UK National employee's etc...?

Can't quite see any of the USA/Canada based companies working on the US contracts (or German) being able to step up to that plate by summer of 2022?

Wondering about any available first gen Gripen's floating about, and BAe's previous tie up with Saab....especially as Boscombe operated a Gripen in the past so not a complete unknown in UK skies...?

Will be interesting to see what transpires over the coming months.

[DuckDodgers]

Originally Posted by GeeRam

Wondering about any available first gen Gripen's floating about, and BAe's previous tie up with Saab....especially as Boscombe operated a Gripen in the past so not a complete unknown in UK skies...?

Not on that budget, sources tell me that last time folk enquired with Saab you were looking at iro $20k per flight hour as a ball park figure.

[Davef68]

Originally Posted by tucumseh

Judging by Freedom of Information requests on the subject, at least one company has been anticipating this requirement for at least two years and knows exactly why Hawk is leaving service. MoD stopped answering the requests in July 2020. Probably because it was asked for the (non-existent) Air System Safety Case.

Do you have a link to some of those (Or some key words) - searching the MOD FOI responses is a bit laboursome!

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by DuckDodgers

Not on that budget, sources tell me that last time folk enquired with Saab you were looking at iro $20k per flight hour as a ball park figure.

So that leaves it likely being a fleet of Hawks, or Alpha-Jets maybe.
There's a few L39's on the UK G-reg, and there's a lot of them around, so that's another possibilty?

You can see why the A-4 Skyhawk is an ideal platform for this, and what it being used out of Wittmund by Top Aces for the German contract along with the AlphaJet.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Originally Posted by GeeRam

In many ways, that would seem the most likely to work given the requirements, of CAA/MAA and UK National employee's etc...?

Can't quite see any of the USA/Canada based companies working on the US contracts (or German) being able to step up to that plate by summer of 2022?

The national employee item isn’t an issue, you employ UK pilots. The CAA/MAA issue will be the same for any company wanting to bid, UK or not. If you’re able to recruit specialist manpower in order to do that work then it’s game on for anyone who wants to bid.

Not a cat in hell’s chance that Gripen would be used, unfortunately it’s far too expensive, though it would be the perfect platform to provide the training.

[tucumseh]

Originally Posted by Davef68

Do you have a link to some of those (Or some key words) - searching the MOD FOI responses is a bit laboursome!

PM sent.

'Hawk' + 'ASSC' on Whatdotheyknow.

[DuckDodgers]

Originally Posted by GeeRam

You can see why the A-4 Skyhawk is an ideal platform for this, and what it being used out of Wittmund by Top Aces for the German contract along with the AlphaJet.

Good old C-FGZT, A-4N Ayit, Bureau Number 159544 built in 1976. The first, technically second as Elta/IAI had already trialled it in a Skyhawk, with the very small SW&P EL/M-2052 radar that happens to record return data to a flash drive for "radar performance monitoring" by the OEM. Just like that in the Darin III Jaguar upgrade.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Originally Posted by DuckDodgers

Good old C-FGZT, A-4N Ayit, Bureau Number 159544 built in 1976. The first, technically second as Elta/IAI had already trialled it in a Skyhawk, with the very small SW&P EL/M-2052 radar that happens to record return data to a flash drive for "radar performance monitoring" by the OEM. Just like that in the Darin III Jaguar upgrade.

I understand the A4 in Germany has been quite an unserviceable pig at times also.

[DuckDodgers]

Originally Posted by Foghorn Leghorn

I understand the A4 in Germany has been quite an unserviceable pig at times also.

That is what I am lead to believe. Support costs, particularly pyro and P408 engines are increasing with particularly long lead times too. I hope the UK CAA sees sense and doesn’t allow them to fly for revenue in U.K. airspace, and that the MAA doesn’t allow them to fly in the DAE.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Originally Posted by DuckDodgers

That is what I am lead to believe. Support costs, particularly pyro and P408 engines are increasing with particularly long lead times too. I hope the UK CAA sees sense and doesn’t allow them to fly for revenue in U.K. airspace, and that the MAA doesn’t allow them to fly in the DAE.

Which, if they didn’t allow them to fly in UK airspace or within the DAE it kind of begs the question of what would Top Aces have to offer. I’m not sure there are many companies with a fleet of aircraft that aren’t old or a bit rag tag.

[DuckDodgers]

Originally Posted by Foghorn Leghorn

Which, if they didn’t allow them to fly in UK airspace or within the DAE it kind of begs the question of what would Top Aces have to offer. I’m not sure there are many companies with a fleet of aircraft that aren’t old or a bit rag tag.

Having spoken to the folks at Raptor Aviation yesterday, it appears Air USA found a buyer for their Hawk mk67s. Unsurprisingly they wouldn't disclose who the buyer may be.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Originally Posted by DuckDodgers

Having spoken to the folks at Raptor Aviation yesterday, it appears Air USA found a buyer for their Hawk mk67s. Unsurprisingly they wouldn't disclose who the buyer may be.

Now that is an interesting move. Though it would take a large company to offer them at a competitive price point as spares support for Hawks of that vintage are in short supply. Still, some very interesting times to come on a short space of time I feel.

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by Foghorn Leghorn

Now that is an interesting move. Though it would take a large company to offer them at a competitive price point as spares support for Hawks of that vintage are in short supply.

Unless you were also the OEM for it of course..........

Which goes back to the rumour of BAe might be a bidder for the contract.....

I can't see CAA/MAA being too keen on the A4 as mentioned, nor on the fleets of IAI Kfir or Atlas Cheetah's being used in the USA either, or indeed even the F-5, so I think by default and with the time constraints.......whoever does bid (and wins) or is only bidder (?) it will be with a Hawk/AlphaJet fleet as an already known type.

[DuckDodgers]

Originally Posted by Foghorn Leghorn

Now that is an interesting move. Though it would take a large company to offer them at a competitive price point as spares support for Hawks of that vintage are in short supply. Still, some very interesting times to come on a short space of time I feel.

Between Jordan and Saudi there are an awful lot of 60 series jets available to purchase today. The 63a in Jordan also have the combat wing.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Originally Posted by GeeRam

Unless you were also the OEM for it of course..........

Which goes back to the rumour of BAe might be a bidder for the contract.....

Not quite true GeeRam old chap. Although BAE are obviously the OEM, 100 Sqn Hawks were/are having an awful time sourcing spares. They just don’t support the airframe as you’d expect!

However, I’m sure the BAE lobbying would carry some weight along with them pouring honey in the MoD’s ears that it’ll be the most amazing offer….only for it to be ‘challenging’ most of the time.

I’m with you on the airframes that you think would win the contract and those that cause concerns. As I say A4s in Germany have been terribly unserviceable. Whoever bids must have a quite a number of assets to fly a 12 line daily programme.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Originally Posted by DuckDodgers

Between Jordan and Saudi there are an awful lot of 60 series jets available to purchase today. The 63a in Jordan also have the combat wing.

There’s an ever diminishing return if you reduce to produce aircraft. Additionally, other countries with spare aircraft would hike the prices (I would) knowing that a company needs them for spares then the operating model becomes increasingly expensive and unachievable.

Definitely some really interesting twists and turns to come out of this in a short space of time. The most difficult nut to crack I assume will be the CAA/MAA operating framework and whether the aircraft go on the military or civil register.