Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Hawk incident near Culdrose

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Hawk incident near Culdrose

Old 31st Mar 2021, 22:38
  #81 (permalink)  

Avoid imitations
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,074
Received 56 Likes on 28 Posts
Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
If you believe that gaining 5000’ classes as ‘quite some altitude’ then by all means please consider your pudding to be egged to a satisfactory, but not excessive, level.

If you had started at LL that means 10 miles of gliding until the aircraft will impact the ground. Since we usually plan to eject before we get too low (let’s say about 1-2000’ minimum) that gives about 6 or 7 miles of useful gliding range which equates to approximately 2 minutes of flying time.

Of course if the engine failure happens at a higher altitude you can add the numbers on (although your zoom potential will be lessened and you will be less likely to have been traveling at such a high IAS).

Despite all of this I still know precisely nothing about the circumstances surrounding last weeks crash.

BV
I’m really not sure what your point is. I have flown single engined military jets, albeit before the Hawk was in service. I was simply making the point that FR24 isn’t a reliable flight recorder, for more than one reason.
ShyTorque is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2021, 00:56
  #82 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Here and there.
Posts: 1,062
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Whilst we accept that tracking sites like 360radar and FR24 are not perfect they can offer a good insight of profiles sufficient to generate discussion. There is often a lot of gap-filling and extrapolation of speeds and altitudes.
It is a shame that XX189 appears on the plot at around 14,000ft so with minimal history we don't know if it got there after a climb, a decent or was happily S&L.
Here is a screen shot of the profiles to aid that discussion.

As an ex-atco it raises a few questions for me but I can wait for the inquiry report to come out.

SATCOS WHIPPING BOY is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2021, 04:45
  #83 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Near the coast
Posts: 2,188
Likes: 0
Received 46 Likes on 7 Posts
Shytorque

There had been talk earlier in the thread of the Hawk squawking 7700 at 14000’.

When I read your post I felt you were inferring that a Hawk that had suffered a LL bird strike might have zoomed to such an altitude. If that was not the case then I apologise.

Talk of bird strikes usually conjure up thoughts of LL profiles. Whilst bird strikes are obviously possible higher up they are much more rare.

Of course I have no idea what altitude the jet was at when it suffered an emergency and indeed what caused it.

BV
Bob Viking is online now  
Old 1st Apr 2021, 08:03
  #84 (permalink)  

Avoid imitations
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,074
Received 56 Likes on 28 Posts
BV, I never mentioned the term low level, nor did I infer this aircraft was.

Apology accepted.

(After over 45 years of flying for a living (and unfortunately having hit a few, including one with about a metre of wingspan which was flying well after midnight) I have some idea of where most birds fly).
ShyTorque is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2021, 10:26
  #85 (permalink)  
Gnome de PPRuNe
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 58
Posts: 10,951
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
I'm curious... looking at the FR24 posted by Satco, the aircraft arrives overhead Culdrose at roughly 7000, and then carries out a wide circuit down past Mullion, over Goonhilly and back out over Falmouth Bay steadily losing height - even allowing for FR24 position errors that looks to me as though the Hawk may have been returning to base, positioning for a RIAB or landing, and the engine failure occurred much later in the sequence, down wind of the runway.

If it had happened at 14000' over Falmouth, wouldn't they have arrived over Culdrose and kept very tight to the airfield, with an eye on dropping it in Mounts Bay if necessary? Falmouth Bay in my experience usually has shipping at anchor awaiting quay space.
treadigraph is online now  
Old 1st Apr 2021, 14:07
  #86 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Den Haag/Constanta
Age: 56
Posts: 5,497
Received 41 Likes on 27 Posts
I thought the MOD temporarily grounded the Hawk T1s - that doesn't sound like it was a bird strike to me.
212man is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2021, 15:56
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Here and there.
Posts: 1,062
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by treadigraph View Post
I'm curious... looking at the FR24 posted by Satco, the aircraft arrives overhead Culdrose at roughly 7000, and then carries out a wide circuit down past Mullion, over Goonhilly and back out over Falmouth Bay steadily losing height - even allowing for FR24 position errors that looks to me as though the Hawk may have been returning to base, positioning for a RIAB or landing, and the engine failure occurred much later in the sequence, down wind of the runway.

If it had happened at 14000' over Falmouth, wouldn't they have arrived over Culdrose and kept very tight to the airfield, with an eye on dropping it in Mounts Bay if necessary? Falmouth Bay in my experience usually has shipping at anchor awaiting quay space.
- When the a/c first appears on FR24 it is showing a height/altitude/level of around 14000' and the squawk says N/A
- The aircraft icon turns red (I believe this indicates a "track of interest" on fr24 so could be the system detecting 7700 ) just south of Trelisick Garden but now indicating 12,600' , however Squawk is still showing as N/A
- FR24 shows 7700 squawk appear as the a/c icon is overhead Penryn at 10,200'.

From that I suggest the problem did occur at a medium level but we cannot say if the appearance of 7700 at Penryn is when it was selected or simply when the tracking software detected it and it had been selected quite some time prior.

As for a recovery profile after that... I don't know serviceability of Culdrose radar at the time, how big its blindspot is overhead, nor the cloudbase, all of which would have a bearing on a visual PFL or radar PFL profile. There is an assumption of engine failure but we have no idea what else packed in, if indeed the engine was the initial problem.

We were not there, we were not in that cockpit so I'll wait for the report to come out.


SATCOS WHIPPING BOY is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2021, 23:43
  #88 (permalink)  
Gnome de PPRuNe
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 58
Posts: 10,951
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
Thanks Satco, curiosity piqued by image and assuaged by answer!
treadigraph is online now  
Old 19th Apr 2021, 20:06
  #89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: cornwall
Age: 77
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Looks like MAYBE the FRADU Hawks are flying again as one was sighted climbing Eastbound around 6,000' this afternoon.

So maybe the reason for the emergency incident with subsequent ejections will be explained now.

Yes I know , lots of "maybes ".
A310bcal is offline  
Old 20th Apr 2021, 09:01
  #90 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 5,493
Received 31 Likes on 17 Posts
Opportunity to save cash right at the end of the Financial Year?

Give everyone a longer Easter break....................
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 20th Apr 2021, 10:22
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Lincs
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
Opportunity to save cash right at the end of the Financial Year?

Give everyone a longer Easter break....................
I wouldn't have thought crashing planes is a good way to save money.
mad_collie is offline  
Old 20th Apr 2021, 10:27
  #92 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kammbronn
Posts: 2,105
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by mad_collie View Post
I wouldn't have thought crashing planes is a good way to save money.
Perhaps a Beancounter might wish to express their perspective?
diginagain is offline  
Old 20th Apr 2021, 10:47
  #93 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: glasgow
Posts: 258
Received 7 Likes on 4 Posts
I am not a beancounter, but I can think of many pretexts to stop flying, including the traditional "stop flying" instruction so would discount the grounding being anything other that a sensible precaution.
As for causing a crash to precipitate an opportunity for cost saving........
falcon900 is offline  
Old 20th Apr 2021, 10:47
  #94 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brighton
Posts: 900
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Not a beancounter, but......................

Many years ago the company I worked for had a total loss of an airframe that was on dry lease half a world away. It emerged that the company made a profit from the tragic event, as the insurance payout was significantly greater than the book value of the aircraft.

Bizarre and distasteful, I thought.
kenparry is offline  
Old 20th Apr 2021, 10:54
  #95 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: glasgow
Posts: 258
Received 7 Likes on 4 Posts
As RN/MOD are not insured, I think we can discount that theory too.
As an aside, I am not sure what is bizarre or distasteful about an insurance settlement being different from the accounting book value of the asset. It would be rare for them to coincide. If you are suggesting the aircraft was deliberately destroyed, I would suggest that Criminal would be a more accurate description than bizarre and distasteful.
falcon900 is offline  
Old 20th Apr 2021, 12:18
  #96 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 5,493
Received 31 Likes on 17 Posts
"As for causing a crash to precipitate an opportunity for cost saving........"

Not what I meant to suggest - just that once the crash happened there may have been some who weren't as keen as they might be to get the aircraft back in the skies immediately. Soem people see an opportunity on the worst possible days - such as the lady in the Labour party who was desperate to get out "bad news" in the shadow of 911
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 20th Apr 2021, 14:47
  #97 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 9,662
Received 108 Likes on 51 Posts
As I understand, the hawk pilot initially positioned for a PFL to Culdrose but the engine problem appeared to correct itself - he changed plan and was then caught out when the problem came back in spades.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 20th Apr 2021, 22:53
  #98 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Here and there.
Posts: 1,062
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
That's interesting. Seem to recall the Mustang pilot that ended up in a field near Duxford facing a similar problem. He said that the intermittent engine issue he encountered was worse than losing the engine from the start. Much more dangerous than a straight forward donkey stops working as there is now added uncertainty and doubt thrown into the mix.

He was very lucky at Duxford, these guys were very lucky at Helston.
SATCOS WHIPPING BOY is offline  
Old 21st Apr 2021, 08:38
  #99 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 5,493
Received 31 Likes on 17 Posts
The US magazine "Flying" runs an "Aftermath" column on private aircraft accidents and that's a point they make regularly - if everything stops you have no choices - but "intermittent" means people often keep going in the hope it'll get better - or rather that their choices will improve.

They often don't
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 21st Apr 2021, 19:23
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: england
Posts: 1,125
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
The US magazine "Flying" runs an "Aftermath" column on private aircraft accidents and that's a point they make regularly - if everything stops you have no choices - but "intermittent" means people often keep going in the hope it'll get better - or rather that their choices will improve.

They often don't
Indeed. Only aircraft accident I've ever watched in person was a civvy chap trying to go around with a rough running/intermittent engine he'd just fluffed a PFL with, rather than put his (literally brand new, first flight from the factory) aircraft on the grass at the end of the 6000' runway he missed the first 5000' of!
pba_target is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.