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Hawk incident near Culdrose

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Hawk incident near Culdrose

Old 26th Mar 2021, 10:01
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The Helford River is in fact the name of the arm of the sea which cuts across the Lizard Peninsula almost as far as Culdrose, so not a river as such. Part of it is known as Frenchman's Creek, made famous in the Daphne du Maurier novel.
I hope your navigation in the air is better than that. The Helford River is one of the most beautiful sailing areas on the Sout Coast, but, though tidal all the way up to Gweek, is not "an arm of the sea"
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Old 26th Mar 2021, 10:54
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Hawk Speed

Please bear in mind I have absolutely no idea what happened to the Hawk yesterday and I have no idea whether they would have had time or cause to establish a glide.

What I can tell you is that the Hawk glide speed (certainly at lower levels) is 190 KIAS.

BV
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Old 26th Mar 2021, 10:59
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Frenchman's Creek is an arm of the Helford on the south side and is tidal in part. Some locals bring large items (such as freezers) by boat from Falmouth and land them there rather than navigate the tortuous road network
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Old 26th Mar 2021, 11:06
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Originally Posted by grmps View Post
I know folk discredit Fr24 but I happened to be watching the plane after being alerted to the 7700 indication. The “glide” speed (if, as reported in the press, an engine failure) seemed to vary between 250 and 350 until the trace stopped over the sea at around 2500ft, I think. Isn’t that a bit fast?

Or is the whole trace rubbish?
I’ve seen our helicopter doing 360 kts, according to FR24. Its fast, but not that fast.
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Old 26th Mar 2021, 13:35
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The execrable Jeremy Vine this morning on Ch.5. That well known aviation expert Ann Diamond gives her authoritative views on this accident. Apparently the Hawk crew comprise a pilot and a navigator. Also there has not been a fast jet ejection for 18 years. It is bad enough when anonymous pruners expound on their expertise but when supposed journalists who have no idea about aviation still spout rubbish they should be challenged and corrected. It makes you wonder what else is made up in other areas. I know very little about military fj flying apart from one of the most fun hours of my life in the back of a Hawk circa 1995. I was not the navigator. Glad the guys are ok, well done Martin Baker.

Last edited by olster; 26th Mar 2021 at 13:49.
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Old 26th Mar 2021, 19:06
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
Frenchman's Creek is an arm of the Helford on the south side and is tidal in part. Some locals bring large items (such as freezers) by boat from Falmouth and land them there rather than navigate the tortuous road network
Are they the same ones that dump fridges and freezers in the Mediterranean providing multiple ‘hi conf snorts’?
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Old 26th Mar 2021, 19:54
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Originally Posted by BEagle View Post
Very glad to hear that the crew are OK!

XX189? What a shame - I first flew it over 40 years ago on the first of the new TWU courses with 63 Sqn at Heaven-in-Devon.

6 October 1980 Self/solo WC6 (DNCO camera U/S) 0:40
I strongly suspect that I flew it at Valley while on the first Hawk course in 1977. But my logbooks are still on one of the boxes scattered around the house after a move . . .
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Old 27th Mar 2021, 01:18
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I hope your navigation in the air is better than that. The Helford River is one of the most beautiful sailing areas on the Sout Coast, but, though tidal all the way up to Gweek, is not "an arm of the sea"
Well if the sea finishes at the mouth of the Helford, what do you call the bit which extends up to Gweek - a leg? a finger? As you say, it is tidal to Gweek. My son was painting a boat in Gweek boatyard today, which pretty well dries out at low tide. I admit my marine terminology is a little shaky (think pointy bit and blunt bit on ships, etc) but I cant see where navigation comes into this? Anyway I was just trying to explain to On The Top Bunk that whatever you call it, it's not a river in the sense that he quite naturally understood.
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Old 27th Mar 2021, 05:29
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Originally Posted by Ken Scott View Post
I totalled up 17 which was rather sobering (though none were at my hands!) I count myself fortunate to have got away with it especially given some of the near misses.
I only ever managed to scrounge 2 fast jet rides but I can claim 100% loss rate; the Hawk I flew in during Aug 1979 (XX183) was lost due to a birdstrike in 2003 and the Hunter I flew in during Sep 1979 (XF321) made an 'inadvertant' gear up landing in 1984 and was written off.
In both cases no fatalities.
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Old 27th Mar 2021, 06:15
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fish

Originally Posted by Tankertrashnav View Post
Well if the sea finishes at the mouth of the Helford, what do you call the bit which extends up to Gweek - a leg? a finger? As you say, it is tidal to Gweek. My son was painting a boat in Gweek boatyard today, which pretty well dries out at low tide. I admit my marine terminology is a little shaky (think pointy bit and blunt bit on ships, etc) but I cant see where navigation comes into this? Anyway I was just trying to explain to On The Top Bunk that whatever you call it, it's not a river in the sense that he quite naturally understood.
Its a Ria.
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Old 27th Mar 2021, 09:25
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Originally Posted by Tankertrashnav View Post
Do they use Irvin parachutes (or the successor company)? If so I assume there will be caterpillar club badges on the way eventually as well.
Parachute is made by GQ, not Irvin. No caterpillar, but quite a nice set of GQ 'Wings'

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Old 27th Mar 2021, 10:20
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Originally Posted by Tigger_Too View Post
Parachute is made by GQ, not Irvin. No caterpillar, but quite a nice set of GQ 'Wings'
I thought they were one and the same?

https://www.irvingq.com
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Old 27th Mar 2021, 11:02
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Originally Posted by Auxtank View Post
I thought they were one and the same?

https://www.irvingq.com
You are correct in that GQ acquired Irvin some time ago (pre-1985?). In 2001 the merged company was re-branded as Irvin-GQ. In 2007, it was re-branded as Airborne Systems; however, during 2018, the company re-adopted its previous name of IRVIN-GQ.
I am not sure at what stage the caterpillar disappeared, but probably at the time of the merger. But I can say for sure that the GQ wings had replaced the caterpillar by 1987!
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Old 27th Mar 2021, 11:41
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Back in the air apparently...

The Red Arrows have flown back to RAF Scampton this afternoon from RAF Valley, where the team had been for pre-season training.
The RAF paused Hawk T1 activity, as a precautionary measure, following an incident with a Royal Navy jet yesterday.
While it remains inappropriate to comment on the ongoing investigation, further technical advice has enabled the Chain of Command to make appropriate decisions on the continuing safety assessments of the wider fleet.
Consequently, the RAF has resumed Hawk T1 flying.
It is inappropriate to comment on the nature of this advice, as this could prejudice the ongoing inquiry.
Safety is always our priority.
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Old 27th Mar 2021, 13:57
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Well if the sea finishes at the mouth of the Helford, what do you call the bit which extends up to Gweek - a leg?
@Tankertrash OK, I over reacted, for which I apologise. As an NCI Coast Watch watchkeeper I spend many happy hours at Nare Point watching the very area of water where these guys might have ditched this thing, and I'm just very glad they they put it safely in a field instead. A much better option.
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Old 27th Mar 2021, 14:52
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Originally Posted by idle bystander View Post
@Tankertrash OK, I over reacted, for which I apologise. As an NCI Coast Watch watchkeeper I spend many happy hours at Nare Point watching the very area of water where these guys might have ditched this thing, and I'm just very glad they they put it safely in a field instead. A much better option.

Yes indeed. The investigation can find the bits much more easily, and go back again if there are any vital to the investigation parts missing. A ditching makes it all much more difficult.
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Old 27th Mar 2021, 17:54
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Thread drift alert

It makes you wonder what else is made up in other areas.
Pretty much all of it, my friend.

And I'm not any sort of dark-state conspiracy theorist.

Just a worldly-wise cynic who is constantly bemused at the myopic gullability of so much of my fellow manslashwoman kind.

Sorry for the drift
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Old 27th Mar 2021, 20:36
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Well bearing in mind PPRuNe is a rumour network, the word on the street down here in Cornwall is that the Hawk was brought down by a birdstrike into the aircraft/engine and the culprit was a sea-gull.
Seems the most likely culprit bearing in mind the flocks of them around our coastline and really its surprising there aren't more problems with them.
No more detail to this rumour that was passed on to me by an old school mate who is a retired CPO ( ex Culdrose ), so we will see how good his source of information was in due course.
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Old 27th Mar 2021, 21:36
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Snag with birdstrike "rumour" is that it would not account for the "rumoured" grounding of the entire T1 fleet.
Unless of course there was a concern that the new variety of Hawk T1 engine oil was particularly attractive to sea birds.
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Old 27th Mar 2021, 22:51
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Originally Posted by SATCOS WHIPPING BOY View Post
Snag with birdstrike "rumour" is that it would not account for the "rumoured" grounding of the entire T1 fleet.
Unless of course there was a concern that the new variety of Hawk T1 engine oil was particularly attractive to sea birds.
How many hours was it between the crash and the grounding of the fleet? Not enough time to get an investigation team down there to remotely start to accertain why that Adour Mk 151 engine decided not to produce any more thrust. I do not know if the accident sequence started at meduim level or low level. Low level over the sea, there is always the risk, same over the land. Not spotted, engine destroyed with RPM dropping and EGT rising/falling. Pull up to get height and time. Try and relight. pilots would have no idea why bar bad noises, the aircraft is slowing down, losing height and the engine dials winding down / warning panel / master caution statrting to go mental. Fleet would be grounded because the cause is not known and birdstrike is a possiblity that cannot be discounted untill the investigation is completed. As I said, I have seen what a gull can do to an Adour after climbing down the intake. I am also an LAE so know a little about aeroplane structures and systems in general.
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