China's expansionist strategy
Thanks to Masalama & Sidevalve for two informative posts. Like others, I have travelled extensively in China but back in '94. The progress it has made since then is astonishing but it is an authroitatian state, will not play by the rules and is a serious threat to western democracy. I left there convinced they would take over the world and they are trying hard to do just that by one method or another.
All empires fall and the empire of western demcracy built up over many years of global dominance is being challenged like never before.
All empires fall and the empire of western demcracy built up over many years of global dominance is being challenged like never before.
They are not interested in conducting an experiment in democracy or self government, as we are (and as a lot of the west has done).
Perhaps that is because they look at the current results and find it not to their liking.
Who is they?
Their 1%; their ruling class.
And so, they apply a model more suited to their culture (authoritarian) and adapt what they need/want where they think it fits.
I am almost frightened to enter this debate.................
But, noting the comment by 4runner........
My wife asked me what religion they are. I said they worship the God “money”.
When my wife and I were on exchange in the USA (Alabama) in the late 80's, my mother came for a visit. She was quite religious, so I looked at a very popular local Church that she could go to so that she could satisfy her religious desires. They were very welcoming initially and said that they looked forward to her joining their congregation, until it was evident that she was just a visitor for a month, and would not commit to a percentage of her income to the church. She went just one Sunday - sat alone and was not felt welcome, so she did not go back.
We were absolutely convinced that the Church was more interested in the financial contribution that she might make rather than any religious camaraderie as a congregation.
Where does religion - of whatever manner - sit in all of this?
Is Trump's God money - or a deity?
I don't know.
But, noting the comment by 4runner........
My wife asked me what religion they are. I said they worship the God “money”.
When my wife and I were on exchange in the USA (Alabama) in the late 80's, my mother came for a visit. She was quite religious, so I looked at a very popular local Church that she could go to so that she could satisfy her religious desires. They were very welcoming initially and said that they looked forward to her joining their congregation, until it was evident that she was just a visitor for a month, and would not commit to a percentage of her income to the church. She went just one Sunday - sat alone and was not felt welcome, so she did not go back.
We were absolutely convinced that the Church was more interested in the financial contribution that she might make rather than any religious camaraderie as a congregation.
Where does religion - of whatever manner - sit in all of this?
Is Trump's God money - or a deity?
I don't know.
I'll offer a different look at this though I mostly agree with you.
They are not interested in conducting an experiment in democracy or self government, as we are (and as a lot of the west has done).
Perhaps that is because they look at the current results and find it not to their liking.
Who is they?
Their 1%; their ruling class.
And so, they apply a model more suited to their culture (authoritarian) and adapt what they need/want where they think it fits.
They are not interested in conducting an experiment in democracy or self government, as we are (and as a lot of the west has done).
Perhaps that is because they look at the current results and find it not to their liking.
Who is they?
Their 1%; their ruling class.
And so, they apply a model more suited to their culture (authoritarian) and adapt what they need/want where they think it fits.
After all what is another trillion from Congress to support their supporters while thousands of people die with little or no access to medical assistance.
The American dream sadly finished a long time ago, which is a pity, it was something people aspired to but when Govt becomes more concerned about semantics rather than helping people it is what happens.
You would be surprised how much Christianity is rooted in China. I know of at least two large active churches in Shenzhen and when I was up at Wenzhou there were half a dozen spires visible from air traffic. Most of them in Wenzhou had been taken over during the Cultural Revolution but not far down the road was a brand new church. Not a small one either, about the same size as a four storied block of flats.
There is a running spat between Beijing and the Vatican. The problem mainly revolves around people. China demands total loyalty to the State but it can accept loyalty towards gods, be they Christian, Muslim, Hindu or whatever. The problem with the Catholic Church is the Pope, and the infallibility therefore. He is a living thing, not a deity so that belief is unacceptable.
I believe that the Catholic Church in China has now reduced the importance of the Holy See to acceptable levels.
There is a running spat between Beijing and the Vatican. The problem mainly revolves around people. China demands total loyalty to the State but it can accept loyalty towards gods, be they Christian, Muslim, Hindu or whatever. The problem with the Catholic Church is the Pope, and the infallibility therefore. He is a living thing, not a deity so that belief is unacceptable.
I believe that the Catholic Church in China has now reduced the importance of the Holy See to acceptable levels.
You would be surprised how much Christianity is rooted in China. I know of at least two large active churches in Shenzhen and when I was up at Wenzhou there were half a dozen spires visible from air traffic. Most of them in Wenzhou had been taken over during the Cultural Revolution but not far down the road was a brand new church. Not a small one either, about the same size as a four storied block of flats.
There is a running spat between Beijing and the Vatican. The problem mainly revolves around people. China demands total loyalty to the State but it can accept loyalty towards gods, be they Christian, Muslim, Hindu or whatever. The problem with the Catholic Church is the Pope, and the infallibility therefore. He is a living thing, not a deity so that belief is unacceptable.
I believe that the Catholic Church in China has now reduced the importance of the Holy See to acceptable levels.
There is a running spat between Beijing and the Vatican. The problem mainly revolves around people. China demands total loyalty to the State but it can accept loyalty towards gods, be they Christian, Muslim, Hindu or whatever. The problem with the Catholic Church is the Pope, and the infallibility therefore. He is a living thing, not a deity so that belief is unacceptable.
I believe that the Catholic Church in China has now reduced the importance of the Holy See to acceptable levels.
China like UK and many other countrys before it hates the idea that people do not buy into the state sponsored religion and this goes as far back as Henry VIII.
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“The American dream sadly finished a long time ago, which is a pity, it was something people aspired to but when Govt becomes more concerned about semantics rather than helping people it is what happens.”
Thats rubbish.
If a black man (Obama) from a poor background can rise to be president the dream is still there.
The problem with the US is that it thinks that it’s model of democracy suits all countries which clearly it does not, the progress China has made in the last 40 yrs would not have been possible, there would have been far to many groups opposing progress. Although it is nominally communist, it is in fact a plutocracy, you might call it a “natural plutocracy”, where those that follow the party line become the ruling elite. That ensures that there are party members at every level to ensure that everybody else falls in line and those that rebel are sent to a re-education camp. There is no opposition and Xi has declared himself president for life, their model of government is very efficient the west really does need to take notice.
Thats rubbish.
If a black man (Obama) from a poor background can rise to be president the dream is still there.
The problem with the US is that it thinks that it’s model of democracy suits all countries which clearly it does not, the progress China has made in the last 40 yrs would not have been possible, there would have been far to many groups opposing progress. Although it is nominally communist, it is in fact a plutocracy, you might call it a “natural plutocracy”, where those that follow the party line become the ruling elite. That ensures that there are party members at every level to ensure that everybody else falls in line and those that rebel are sent to a re-education camp. There is no opposition and Xi has declared himself president for life, their model of government is very efficient the west really does need to take notice.
Thread Starter
Wow,
I'm impressed, I got lessons in economics, history, politics, religion, military strategy and democracy from many on this thread.
So I guess the key question is: China: Do we "fight" it, or embrace it.
IG
I'm impressed, I got lessons in economics, history, politics, religion, military strategy and democracy from many on this thread.
So I guess the key question is: China: Do we "fight" it, or embrace it.
IG
Imagegear, neither fight or embrace; we have to manage the current and future situation with the best understanding of China possible, and learn without bias.
Thus the challenge is to learn about and understand China as it is, not as portrayed or wished for by some nations, then to interact, diplomacy, economics, and culture.
Thus the challenge is to learn about and understand China as it is, not as portrayed or wished for by some nations, then to interact, diplomacy, economics, and culture.
Father was a paid for Kenyan student, which was still part of British Empire, on a Russian language course in Hawaii, remember Kenya wasn't yet indepenent but in 1960 he wanted to learn Russian and in Hawaii. Guess London was too cold.
His mum was a student when most people could not afford to go to Uni, moved from there to Seattle also at Uni and then back to Hawaii also at Uni. His step dad was a paid for post Grad student as well, who then returned to a clear well paid role in Indonesia as they lived in a wealthy suburb.
The idea that poverty was he grew up poor similar to black people around the US in 1960's is not borne out by his own version history as how many poor black families were moving from University to University and visiting Indonesia / Kenya.
No sure what gave you that idea.
Father was a paid for Kenyan student, which was still part of British Empire, on a Russian language course in Hawaii, remember Kenya wasn't yet indepenent but in 1960 he wanted to learn Russian and in Hawaii. Guess London was too cold.
His mum was a student when most people could not afford to go to Uni, moved from there to Seattle also at Uni and then back to Hawaii also at Uni. His step dad was a paid for post Grad student as well, who then returned to a clear well paid role in Indonesia as they lived in a wealthy suburb.
The idea that poverty was he grew up poor similar to black people around the US in 1960's is not borne out by his own version history as how many poor black families were moving from University to University and visiting Indonesia / Kenya.
Father was a paid for Kenyan student, which was still part of British Empire, on a Russian language course in Hawaii, remember Kenya wasn't yet indepenent but in 1960 he wanted to learn Russian and in Hawaii. Guess London was too cold.
His mum was a student when most people could not afford to go to Uni, moved from there to Seattle also at Uni and then back to Hawaii also at Uni. His step dad was a paid for post Grad student as well, who then returned to a clear well paid role in Indonesia as they lived in a wealthy suburb.
The idea that poverty was he grew up poor similar to black people around the US in 1960's is not borne out by his own version history as how many poor black families were moving from University to University and visiting Indonesia / Kenya.
With respect to China, it would appear to me that the country can be thought of like a transoceanic flight where the plane is past PNR but a sudden huge unforcasted increase in headwind makes it doubtful they can make land. Just because they are flying fine now does not mean they are OK
A bit of an oversimplification, but I believe fundamentally accurate summary of the Chinese model. Chinese citizens accept one party rule with no political dissension allowed in return for a steady and significant increase in opportunity and wealth for almost everyone in the country. So far the government has delivered, but to do that requires a real GDP annual growth of at lest 6 %. This is an extremely high bar and will be impossible to achieve this year and likely for at least the next 2 years. The inevitable result will be a huge increase in unemployment and a significant reduction in individual wealth for many.
The Chinese government has only one tool to manage unhappy people, the ruthless use of coercive force.
Will that work with a population that increasing is well educated and media savvy ?
Traditionally dictatorships that are in trouble embark on foreign military actions to distract from domestic troubles. There are many ways for that to end very badly, not just for the Chinese people but for the entire world.....
A bit of an oversimplification, but I believe fundamentally accurate summary of the Chinese model. Chinese citizens accept one party rule with no political dissension allowed in return for a steady and significant increase in opportunity and wealth for almost everyone in the country. So far the government has delivered, but to do that requires a real GDP annual growth of at lest 6 %. This is an extremely high bar and will be impossible to achieve this year and likely for at least the next 2 years. The inevitable result will be a huge increase in unemployment and a significant reduction in individual wealth for many.
In the middle of the night when I have my most deeply considered thoughts, I do worry that the good old days of the Cold War were so much more certain, even when I spent hours on exercise with my Gas Mask on and my NBC suit on.
If I want to have a sleepless night, I think of November 2020 - Trump just might not get re-elected - and we all know that he hates China. So he has some 6 months to develop a campaign against China - Covid19 and the origins of it are very obvious ammunition - plus the very ongoing aspirations of China over the South China Seas - so - without too much provocation, he exercises the undoubted capabilities of the US military to divert or concentrate opinion at home about domestic issues. It has been done before.
A cornered animal??
And then where do we all go?
North Korea, China, Iran - and potentially a USA operating without any old-fashioned diplomatic restraint or a President who can be seen to be occasionally out of control and hell-bent on personal aggrandisement.
I know - fake news has led me down this path.
Should I sleep well tonight??
If I want to have a sleepless night, I think of November 2020 - Trump just might not get re-elected - and we all know that he hates China. So he has some 6 months to develop a campaign against China - Covid19 and the origins of it are very obvious ammunition - plus the very ongoing aspirations of China over the South China Seas - so - without too much provocation, he exercises the undoubted capabilities of the US military to divert or concentrate opinion at home about domestic issues. It has been done before.
A cornered animal??
And then where do we all go?
North Korea, China, Iran - and potentially a USA operating without any old-fashioned diplomatic restraint or a President who can be seen to be occasionally out of control and hell-bent on personal aggrandisement.
I know - fake news has led me down this path.
Should I sleep well tonight??
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BomberH,
I feel an enormous and very personal desire to make china suffer for what they have done. The eventual and whole consequences of this pandemic are unthinkably terrifying.
If this virus was released by chance via the wet market, then their filthy habits with animals, which they knew were gravely hazardous, are to blame. If it came unintentionally from a lab, they are responsible too, just as if a nuke launch occurred without authorisation and took out thousands, and precipitated a depression. In both of these scenarios, they are responsible by action or inaction for the present destruction of our lives. I don’t see any credible evidence that it arrived through another route, despite the conspiracy theorists’ ramblings.
Developed peoples have military resources to defend themselves and project power.
If China was not a nuclear power, I would be screaming for military intervention to teach them a lesson they would never forget, and make sure they are the last to get up off their knees. (I’m informed by my perspective on their contribution to my world: cheap crap which should have been made better at slightly higher cost; that doesn’t give them a dog in this fight).
Sadly, I fear history will record a different story.
I’ll close by appealing to everyone here to do as we have done, and have no truck whatsoever with Chinese products or business, ever again.
I feel an enormous and very personal desire to make china suffer for what they have done. The eventual and whole consequences of this pandemic are unthinkably terrifying.
If this virus was released by chance via the wet market, then their filthy habits with animals, which they knew were gravely hazardous, are to blame. If it came unintentionally from a lab, they are responsible too, just as if a nuke launch occurred without authorisation and took out thousands, and precipitated a depression. In both of these scenarios, they are responsible by action or inaction for the present destruction of our lives. I don’t see any credible evidence that it arrived through another route, despite the conspiracy theorists’ ramblings.
Developed peoples have military resources to defend themselves and project power.
If China was not a nuclear power, I would be screaming for military intervention to teach them a lesson they would never forget, and make sure they are the last to get up off their knees. (I’m informed by my perspective on their contribution to my world: cheap crap which should have been made better at slightly higher cost; that doesn’t give them a dog in this fight).
Sadly, I fear history will record a different story.
I’ll close by appealing to everyone here to do as we have done, and have no truck whatsoever with Chinese products or business, ever again.
I don't but the possibility of an internal conflict is I would suggest way above average in the US in next couple of years. Polarised Govt, hatred against opponents, unsustainable debt, media all over the place, likely millions of have nots and a recipe for serious unrest.
BomberH,
I feel an enormous and very personal desire to make china suffer for what they have done. The eventual and whole consequences of this pandemic are unthinkably terrifying.
If this virus was released by chance via the wet market, then their filthy habits with animals, which they knew were gravely hazardous, are to blame. If it came unintentionally from a lab, they are responsible too, just as if a nuke launch occurred without authorisation and took out thousands, and precipitated a depression. In both of these scenarios, they are responsible by action or inaction for the present destruction of our lives. I don’t see any credible evidence that it arrived through another route, despite the conspiracy theorists’ ramblings.
Developed peoples have military resources to defend themselves and project power.
If China was not a nuclear power, I would be screaming for military intervention to teach them a lesson they would never forget, and make sure they are the last to get up off their knees. (I’m informed by my perspective on their contribution to my world: cheap crap which should have been made better at slightly higher cost; that doesn’t give them a dog in this fight).
Sadly, I fear history will record a different story.
I’ll close by appealing to everyone here to do as we have done, and have no truck whatsoever with Chinese products or business, ever again.
I feel an enormous and very personal desire to make china suffer for what they have done. The eventual and whole consequences of this pandemic are unthinkably terrifying.
If this virus was released by chance via the wet market, then their filthy habits with animals, which they knew were gravely hazardous, are to blame. If it came unintentionally from a lab, they are responsible too, just as if a nuke launch occurred without authorisation and took out thousands, and precipitated a depression. In both of these scenarios, they are responsible by action or inaction for the present destruction of our lives. I don’t see any credible evidence that it arrived through another route, despite the conspiracy theorists’ ramblings.
Developed peoples have military resources to defend themselves and project power.
If China was not a nuclear power, I would be screaming for military intervention to teach them a lesson they would never forget, and make sure they are the last to get up off their knees. (I’m informed by my perspective on their contribution to my world: cheap crap which should have been made better at slightly higher cost; that doesn’t give them a dog in this fight).
Sadly, I fear history will record a different story.
I’ll close by appealing to everyone here to do as we have done, and have no truck whatsoever with Chinese products or business, ever again.
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My take on it is, it will be the reverberations that will take place when the current crisis comes to an end.
I feel China will be held partially responsible even though to be honest it could have started anywhere.
The biggest change I foresee is the World has woken up to the fact you cannot put all your core manufacturing capabilities into one country, because when the world turns to poo you cannot source those essential products.
so I can see various manufacturing being brought back into home country production and that will be to the detriment of the Chinese economy, which probably means it will contract and have a ‘knock on effect to their planned growth. In a way it shows the disadvantages of a global economy.
I feel China will be held partially responsible even though to be honest it could have started anywhere.
The biggest change I foresee is the World has woken up to the fact you cannot put all your core manufacturing capabilities into one country, because when the world turns to poo you cannot source those essential products.
so I can see various manufacturing being brought back into home country production and that will be to the detriment of the Chinese economy, which probably means it will contract and have a ‘knock on effect to their planned growth. In a way it shows the disadvantages of a global economy.
BomberH,
I feel an enormous and very personal desire to make china suffer for what they have done. The eventual and whole consequences of this pandemic are unthinkably terrifying.
If this virus was released by chance via the wet market, then their filthy habits with animals, which they knew were gravely hazardous, are to blame. If it came unintentionally from a lab, they are responsible too, just as if a nuke launch occurred without authorisation and took out thousands, and precipitated a depression. In both of these scenarios, they are responsible by action or inaction for the present destruction of our lives. I don’t see any credible evidence that it arrived through another route, despite the conspiracy theorists’ ramblings.
Developed peoples have military resources to defend themselves and project power.
If China was not a nuclear power, I would be screaming for military intervention to teach them a lesson they would never forget, and make sure they are the last to get up off their knees. (I’m informed by my perspective on their contribution to my world: cheap crap which should have been made better at slightly higher cost; that doesn’t give them a dog in this fight).
Sadly, I fear history will record a different story.
I’ll close by appealing to everyone here to do as we have done, and have no truck whatsoever with Chinese products or business, ever again.
I feel an enormous and very personal desire to make china suffer for what they have done. The eventual and whole consequences of this pandemic are unthinkably terrifying.
If this virus was released by chance via the wet market, then their filthy habits with animals, which they knew were gravely hazardous, are to blame. If it came unintentionally from a lab, they are responsible too, just as if a nuke launch occurred without authorisation and took out thousands, and precipitated a depression. In both of these scenarios, they are responsible by action or inaction for the present destruction of our lives. I don’t see any credible evidence that it arrived through another route, despite the conspiracy theorists’ ramblings.
Developed peoples have military resources to defend themselves and project power.
If China was not a nuclear power, I would be screaming for military intervention to teach them a lesson they would never forget, and make sure they are the last to get up off their knees. (I’m informed by my perspective on their contribution to my world: cheap crap which should have been made better at slightly higher cost; that doesn’t give them a dog in this fight).
Sadly, I fear history will record a different story.
I’ll close by appealing to everyone here to do as we have done, and have no truck whatsoever with Chinese products or business, ever again.
Why not let the dust settle first before deciding who is to blame and what punishment they should get? There is a lot of crap on the internet about China, wet markets, labs in Wuhan, etc. Wet Markets are not exclusive to China, they operate across the entire world. Even live animal wet markets can be found in places like the US, but of course are more prevalent around South East Asia. I've seen them in operation in Hong Kong, Vietnam and Thailand. This virus could have started just about anywhere, and scientists still need time to figure out exactly where COVID-19 actually first jumped from animal to human.
There are quite a few 'if' statements in your post, really you should be dealing with facts before you start making inflammatory calls to arms.
Thread Starter
Yesterday I approached the big river company with a request to offer the option to select which manufacturing countries to eliminate from my search and presentation criteria.
I can confirm that Jeff and his underlings do not care where he sources his tat, so long has he gets to boost his personal wealth. $140 BILLON Dollars by the way. A very large proportion of which originates from flogging Chinese stuff.
I acknowledge that he is just a market trader, the real issue lies with those (including myself) who go for the one stop shop, place to go to.
IG.
I can confirm that Jeff and his underlings do not care where he sources his tat, so long has he gets to boost his personal wealth. $140 BILLON Dollars by the way. A very large proportion of which originates from flogging Chinese stuff.
I acknowledge that he is just a market trader, the real issue lies with those (including myself) who go for the one stop shop, place to go to.
IG.