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The F-35 thread, Mk II

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The F-35 thread, Mk II

Old 23rd May 2024, 11:38
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Originally Posted by golder
I've heard quite a number of names for you, other than Bill Sweetman. Funnily enough, none of those you mentioned. Are among the ones that I have heard.
You might usefully refrain from attempts at being clever, or humorous, as you fail signally every time you do.

Is it really necessary for me to suggest that simple common decency and honour would compel anyone but a troll and a coward to avoid taking a pop at a named individual from behind the cover of anonymity?
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Old 23rd May 2024, 12:35
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I'll get the popcorn.
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Old 23rd May 2024, 13:09
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Originally Posted by golder
It's just a shame that Avwk has cleaned up their website and deleted most of Sweetman's FUD stuff.
They had to take it down. The comment section was full of drivelling nonsense scrawled out by people who were clearly mentally ill.

Last edited by LowObservable; 23rd May 2024 at 14:07.
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Old 23rd May 2024, 13:24
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JN - About right. What gets to be interesting in the outlook for the F-35 is the 2030s, when
- the 1000-some aircraft built to date are passing 15 years old
- the US wants to be able to cut off support for TR2 and has been focused on adding capabilities to TR3
- the TR3/Block 4 retrofit and the engine and cooling upgrade, all sole source, cost Cthulhu only knows what
- and don't forget the little ruh-roh aside in last month's JPO testimony


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Old 24th May 2024, 07:14
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40 years old…. I thought the EE Lightning was old when the fleet was retired 31 years after the first flight if the P1B…

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2024...remain-behind/

House defense bill would add more test F-35s as upgrades remain behind

The military would dedicate more Lockheed Martin-made F-35 Joint Strike Fighters to testing new technologies and capabilities under the House’s proposed fiscal 2025 National Defense Authorization Act.

An amendment proposed by Rep. Rob Wittman, R-Va., and adopted by a voice vote Wednesday would increase the number of developmental test F-35s in the works from six to at least nine, tweaking a provision that was passed as part of the FY24 NDAA.….

GAO also raised concerns about the F-35′s program’s testing capacity, which now has jets older than four decades that frequently break.

Four more F-35s are to receive modifications and become test jets by 2026, but GAO said testers would need to use workarounds and could not conduct all the external weapons tests some F-35s would need.

The proposed FY25 NDAA would cut the Pentagon’s planned F-35 purchase by 10, redirecting the roughly billion dollars in savings to expanding the jets’ testing capacity, including by buying more test aircraft…..

GAO also raised concerns in its report about the timetable for bringing on new developmental test F-35s.

The six jets that were already in the works would have been unprepared to conduct test flights until 2029 at the earliest. And the plans to retire existing test F-35s, GAO said, would have left the F-35 program with no test jets in 2028 and part of 2029.
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Old 24th May 2024, 15:22
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Originally Posted by ORAC
40 years old…. I thought the EE Lightning was old when the fleet was retired 31 years after the first flight if the P1B…

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2024...remain-behind/

House defense bill would add more test F-35s as upgrades remain behind

The military would dedicate more Lockheed Martin-made F-35 Joint Strike Fighters to testing new technologies and capabilities under the House’s proposed fiscal 2025 National Defense Authorization Act.

An amendment proposed by Rep. Rob Wittman, R-Va., and adopted by a voice vote Wednesday would increase the number of developmental test F-35s in the works from six to at least nine, tweaking a provision that was passed as part of the FY24 NDAA.….

GAO also raised concerns about the F-35′s program’s testing capacity, which now has jets older than four decades that frequently break.

Four more F-35s are to receive modifications and become test jets by 2026, but GAO said testers would need to use workarounds and could not conduct all the external weapons tests some F-35s would need.

The proposed FY25 NDAA would cut the Pentagon’s planned F-35 purchase by 10, redirecting the roughly billion dollars in savings to expanding the jets’ testing capacity, including by buying more test aircraft…..

GAO also raised concerns in its report about the timetable for bringing on new developmental test F-35s.

The six jets that were already in the works would have been unprepared to conduct test flights until 2029 at the earliest. And the plans to retire existing test F-35s, GAO said, would have left the F-35 program with no test jets in 2028 and part of 2029.
I'm sure the usual people will be along in a few minutes to explain how EVERYTHING IS FINE and not to listen to all the naysayers. But for the moment the Block 4 plan is looking a bit like Iraqi war plans looked on Jan. 18, 1991.
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Old 24th May 2024, 16:44
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Originally Posted by ORAC
40 years old…. I thought the EE Lightning was old when the fleet was retired 31 years after the first flight if the P1B…
....
GAO also raised concerns about the F-35′s program’s testing capacity, which now has jets older than four decades that frequently break.....
...the F-35 may be far behind schedule, but not that far...at least I'm not aware of any F-35 being around in 1984,

And having four test aircraft, each older than a decade, still doesn't add up to "jets older than four decades"...but a pretty sinister twist of words from the original source text, I admit,
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Old 24th May 2024, 17:25
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Originally Posted by ihg
And having four test aircraft, each older than a decade, still doesn't add up to "jets older than four decades"...but a pretty sinister twist of words from the original source text, I admit,
It also reveals something about the objectiveness (or lack thereof) of the author.
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Old 24th May 2024, 20:41
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Originally Posted by tdracer
It also reveals something about the objectiveness (or lack thereof) of the author.
And yours. ORAC said 40 years, not Low Observable. I'd trust the objectivity of Bill Sweetman (long established, reputable, award-winning expert journalist) over yours.
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Old 24th May 2024, 20:58
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JN, in defence of ORAC it was actually Stephen Losey (or a sub) who said four decades old, misquoting the the GAO report's mention of four test aircraft over ten years. (which may be what tdracer meant)
Since July, the Pentagon has refused to accept deliveries of the newest F-35s from Lockheed Martin over the TR-3 delays. An undisclosed number of those jets are stored at Lockheed facilities, particularly its factory in Fort Worth, Texas, but GAO warned in its May 16 report that the firm may start running out of room to park undelivered F-35s.
GAO also raised concerns about the F-35′s program’s testing capacity, which now has jets older than four decades that frequently break.
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Old 24th May 2024, 21:53
  #871 (permalink)  
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And yours. ORAC said 40 years, not Low Observable.
Hmmm, actually, I didn’t - I was actually correctly reporting the words of the author of the article to which I provided a link - Stephen Losey.

https://www.defensenews.com/author/stephen-losey/

Paragraph 10 : https://www.defensenews.com/air/2024...remain-behind/
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Old 24th May 2024, 23:37
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Originally Posted by Jackonicko
And yours. ORAC said 40 years, not Low Observable. I'd trust the objectivity of Bill Sweetman (long established, reputable, award-winning expert journalist) over yours.
Other than the minor detail that Bill Sweetman didn't author this:
GAO also raised concerns about the F-35′s program’s testing capacity, which now has jets older than four decades that frequently break.
It was Stephen Losey - who supposedly "is the air warfare reporter for Defense News".
Even a casual observer would know that there are no F-35s that are "older than four decades".
At best it points to incredible carelessness by the author to make such a statement.
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Old 25th May 2024, 00:30
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Apologies. I've watched too many attacks against Bill, who I respect, and leapt to the conclusion that this was another.

I would not leap to the defence of Mr Losey.
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Old 25th May 2024, 01:52
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Originally Posted by ORAC
Hmmm, actually, I didn’t - /
If you used the quote blocks you'd not see those kinds of remarks made. When it isn't your words, it really is best, and most honest, to use the quote block.
See how easy it is to do this?
House defense bill would add more test F-35s as upgrades remain behind

The military would dedicate more Lockheed Martin-made F-35 Joint Strike Fighters to testing new technologies and capabilities under the House’s proposed fiscal 2025 National Defense Authorization Act.

An amendment proposed by Rep. Rob Wittman, R-Va., and adopted by a voice vote Wednesday would increase the number of developmental test F-35s in the works from six to at least nine, tweaking a provision that was passed as part of the FY24 NDAA.….

GAO also raised concerns about the F-35′s program’s testing capacity, which now has jets older than four decades that frequently break.

Four more F-35s are to receive modifications and become test jets by 2026, but GAO said testers would need to use workarounds and could not conduct all the external weapons tests some F-35s would need.

The proposed FY25 NDAA would cut the Pentagon’s planned F-35 purchase by 10, redirecting the roughly billion dollars in savings to expanding the jets’ testing capacity, including by buying more test aircraft…..

GAO also raised concerns in its report about the timetable for bringing on new developmental test F-35s.

The six jets that were already in the works would have been unprepared to conduct test flights until 2029 at the earliest. And the plans to retire existing test F-35s, GAO said, would have left the F-35 program with no test jets in 2028 and part of 2029.
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Old 25th May 2024, 04:37
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Journalists. Otherwise known as people who create controversy to make money, People who sell agendas for their masters.
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Old 25th May 2024, 11:35
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Originally Posted by LateArmLive
Journalists. Otherwise known as people who create controversy to make money, People who sell agendas for their masters.
Such a novel point of view. The originality and creativity on show here is quite staggering. But speaking of masters and agendas, whose agenda is furthered by chanting cliches, as one of the largest defense programs in history, after more than 25 years of committed investment, can't deliver hardware and has no schedule for vital upgrades?
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Old 25th May 2024, 15:49
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Originally Posted by LowObservable
Such a novel point of view. The originality and creativity on show here is quite staggering. But speaking of masters and agendas, whose agenda is furthered by chanting cliches, as one of the largest defense programs in history, after more than 25 years of committed investment, can't deliver hardware and has no schedule for vital upgrades?
Don't know if this is the case here but anything that damages F-35 will not be unwelcome to Boeing on the one hand (surely hoping for more F-15 orders or at least preventing cuts by the Air Force) nor to Russia or China. The latter two are actively trying to meddle with internal politics in the West. So I would not completely rule out that they might feed in some cases Journalists with information that fits their agenda. Doesn't have to be the case here, though. But it's sometimes not easy to distinguish.
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Old 25th May 2024, 16:48
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Originally Posted by henra
Don't know if this is the case here but anything that damages F-35 will not be unwelcome to Boeing on the one hand (surely hoping for more F-15 orders or at least preventing cuts by the Air Force) nor to Russia or China. The latter two are actively trying to meddle with internal politics in the West. So I would not completely rule out that they might feed in some cases Journalists with information that fits their agenda. Doesn't have to be the case here, though. But it's sometimes not easy to distinguish.
I don't recall a single occasion when anyone who slipped me JSF-related information had a whiff of foreign-agent about them. Competitors would talk, but that's how the game is played, and LockMart could be relied upon to go above and beyond, to the point where I would think "if you really know that much about Product X you shouldn't be talking about it because sources and methods."

But when it comes to influence operations, LM and RTX are supreme. The poor GE/RR F136 engine (which would have alleviated the jet's thermal problems) never had a chance against the ruthless and mendacious assaults of P&W, the Connecticut delegation, and well known names around DC. LockMart was the first and principal sponsor of a brand-new think-tank in Australia, the Williams Foundation, which has resolutely championed the F-35 from its first breath in 2008. Industry paid a horde of people to kvetch at my editors any time I touched a keyboard. Believe me, the few of us thinking independently about these things were using garden shovels against a Moehne Dam-class torrent of professionally generated bull****.
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Old 25th May 2024, 18:16
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Originally Posted by Jackonicko
Apologies. I've watched too many attacks against Bill, who I respect, and leapt to the conclusion that this was another.

I would not leap to the defence of Mr Losey.
Fair enough. Apology accepted...
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Old 25th May 2024, 18:31
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More lessons learned:
Any strategy needs a Plan B, and Plan B should be better than “so we retreat as far as Smolensk, where we all starve to death in a snowbank.”

Bill Sweetman shares 10 ways GCAP can avoid the hell of the F-35 project with little or no effort | Hush-Kit (hushkit.net)
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