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The F-35 thread, Mk II

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The F-35 thread, Mk II

Old 8th Jun 2024, 13:09
  #961 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SpazSinbad
Exclusive: Germany looking into buying eight additional F-35 jets 07 Jun 2024
https://www.reuters.com/business/aer...ys-2024-06-07/
"BERLIN, June 7 (Reuters) - Germany is looking into buying eight additional F-35 fighter jets... a military source told Reuters on Friday, on top of the 35 jets it has ordered. Berlin is examining the costs of such a purchase, the source said,.... In 2022, Germany decided to order 35 F-35s, including missiles and other weapons, for around 10 billion euros ($10.89 billion).... he F-35 will be stationed at an air base near the western German town of Buechel from 2027..... The first eight F-35s are scheduled for delivery in 2026 and will be based in the U.S. for pilot training...."
Another country announcing they may buy more. I guess the book wasn't translated to German. Don't they read some English bloggers and forums?
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Old 10th Jun 2024, 20:28
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Originally Posted by golder
I commented on a previous article of yours on the F-35, Saying the article was clueless. I see not much has changed.
Are you capable of simple courtesy? Or are you 'clueless' when it comes to common politeness?

That article was far from clueless - it accurately reported the concerns raised by Jonathan Smith - former F-22 and F-35 pilot, former boss of the TES, and a former F-35 tactics development officer and Requirements Manager. Someone with more of a 'clue' than some anonymous antipodean contrarian troll, I'd suggest.

As well as the independent reprograming mission data library laboratories. The F-35 can share mission library in real time, if a new threat is detected.
ACURL is not 'independent', many functions are NOFORN, accounting for the large number of US personnel. Nor is it agile. (And the less 'clueless' spell re-progamming with two Ms).

The ability of the F-35 to share some raw data in flight is one thing. The USAF still views a three hour MD cycle as a 'moonshot'.

As well as the existing open architecture. TR-3 takes open architecture to a new level
TR-3: THE OPEN ARCHITECTURE BACKBONE OF THE F-35 LIGHTNING
F-35-TR-3-Infographic-sas-62431_web.pdf (l3harris.com)

BUILDING DATA - Inside the RAAF’s F-35 mission data programming capability | ADBR
TR-3 doesn't take anything to any level. It still isn't working. The aircraft will remain heavily vendor, ITAR and NOFORN locked.
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Old 12th Jun 2024, 07:56
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Originally Posted by Jackonicko
Are you capable of simple courtesy? Or are you 'clueless' when it comes to common politeness?
That article was far from clueless - it accurately reported the concerns raised by Jonathan Smith - former F-22 and F-35 pilot, former boss of the TES, and a former F-35 tactics development officer and Requirements Manager. Someone with more of a 'clue' than some anonymous antipodean contrarian troll, I'd suggest.
Not what was said by Smith, but your opinions. The number of times you have attacked me. Including having your posts removed by mods. You questioned my politeness and then said I'm a anonymous antipodean contrarian troll.
I find it laughable for you to clutch your pearls. Funny as.

ACURL is not 'independent', many functions are NOFORN, accounting for the large number of US personnel. Nor is it agile. (And the less 'clueless' spell re-progamming with two Ms).
ACURL is independent from the Italian-Norwegian, the Israeli-Japanese labs, Et Al
Spelling police - the last haven of a failed argument.


The ability of the F-35 to share some raw data in flight is one thing. The USAF still views a three hour MD cycle as a 'moonshot'.
TR-3 doesn't take anything to any level. It still isn't working. The aircraft will remain heavily vendor, ITAR and NOFORN locked.
Another one that thinks open architecture is similar to open source. (have I mentioned clueless opinions?)
Whereas it's more like Microsoft drivers and apps on your computer. Plug and play on the core software.

Last edited by golder; 12th Jun 2024 at 09:26.
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Old 13th Jun 2024, 00:40
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1) I wrote the article. It contains his opinions not mine (I'm a mere journo, what do I know?).
I know precisely what Smithy said as I have an accurate transcript. Unless you've broken into my office, you don't. Indeed I rather suspect you haven't actually read the piece in question.

I'm not clutching pearls, I'm just bored by your relentlessly unpleasant boorishness. As to my description - you are: anonymous. (Fact). Antipodean (Fact). Contrarian (self evidently, and not pejorative). While the term 'troll' might be viewed as rude, I'd argue that it's justified, and less offensive than 'clueless'. I'm glad you're amused, however.

2) ACURL is not independent of the parent USAF unit (the 350th Spectrum Warfare Group). It is one of three flights within the F-35 Partner Support Complex, together with NIRL and XRL. This 'independent' unit consists of 40 British, and 20 Australian military personnel working alongside 30 US personnel. There is, incidentally, no dedicated Italian-Japanese lab.

3) I know what open architecture is and what open source is. Thanks for your input, though.

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Old 14th Jun 2024, 04:48
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The truth is that you are hunting me. When your posts were removed earlier. You then posted again. I didn't respond to your last April attack. Nor the one from a week ago. Yet you started it up again and it still continues today

I mentioned 3 of the 4 current labs. All of which are independent from each other. ACURL, Italian-Norwegian, Israeli-Japanese and to fill the 4, the USAF-USN.

However you are right, there is no Italian-Japanese lab. nor is there a Italian-Israeli or ACURL-Norwegian. I guess the countries involved think that having one lab is enough. Is not knowing who is in what lab, when it was clearly written, clueless?

The '6th' gen Gripen is all rainbows and bunny rabbits. While the F-35 is portrayed as the wicked witch of the west.
Even though Brazil is looking to buy F-16 as the Gripen is running years late

Brazilian Air Force in negotiations with US for used F-16s (janes.com)

Another country that doesn't read some journalists or forum posts.
Israeli Ministry of Defense signs LOA for third squadron of F-35s - European Security & Defence (euro-sd.com)

Israeli Ministry of Defense signs LOA for third squadron of F-35s


Last edited by golder; 14th Jun 2024 at 23:14.
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Old 15th Jun 2024, 10:20
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Golder,
My responses since your Post 940 have been calm and factual, responding to your posts. That's hardly hunting you. I wonder if, perhaps, you're projecting?

I responded to your post 940 (and subsequent posts) in which you attacked me as being 'clueless'. You tried to tell me what an article that I wrote did and didn't say, and how it was written. That's an area (what I write and how and why I write it) where I really do know better than you.

The F-35 PSC has three labs. ACURL, NIR (Netherlands, Italy) and XRL (all other non US-users). The US sits outside the Partner Support Complex for obvious reasons. The PSC labs may be independent of one another, but they are not independent of the US host and lack true sovereign autonomy.

I don't know why you bring Gripen into it. I'm not making claims that it's 6th Gen (nor even 5th), you have me confused with someone else! However, I would suggest that Brazilian interest in second hand F-16s reflects the cost of Gripen E more than the timescales. The FAB is also known to be looking at second hand Gripen Cs - again a cheaper option than additional Gripen Es..

I'd suggest that an IDF F-35A buy is not the ringing endorsement of the F-35 programme that you seem to think it is. Israel has little option than to procure (usually heavily subsidised) US equipment, and has the ability to integrate its own kit and weapons, removing one of the type's disadvantages. The problems with TR-3 and Block 4 are rather less of an issue for Israel than for other users.

I'm surprised that you're not trumpeting the apparent loosening of commitment to NGAD by Allvin and Kendall in recent days. I was expecting a "that proves that the F-35 is more than adequate" kind of response (it proves no such thing, of course).

It may, however, say all sorts of things about the maturity (or anticipated maturity) of certain technologies underpinning NGAD and its associated family of systems.
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Old 17th Jun 2024, 06:30
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Each country has control of their mission library done in their labs. I don't need your fantasies about the labs.

You also didn't open the Janes link, or you wouldn't have said wrong stuff about Gripen/Brazil.

Wasn't this the link, or one similar I posted?
BUILDING DATA - Inside the RAAF’s F-35 mission data programming capability | ADBR
“There’s a number of different laboratories being established,” Australia’s JSF Program Manager, AVM Leigh Gordon told ADBR. “There’s one for the Norwegians and the Italians (the NIRL), there’s the US complex (USRL), and there’s the ACURL. There’s also a lab at Point Mugu that looks after FMS customers and other partners who haven’t built or contributed to their own sovereign reprogramming laboratories.”

Lockheed Martin to add new F-35 Mission Data Load ...
. F-35 at the Australia, Canada and UK Reprogramming Laboratory (ACURL) will support Australian and UK sovereign reprogramming capabilities.

Inside the RAAF's F-35 mission data programming capability
... sovereign reprogramming laboratories.” The ACURL hardware was initially established at Lockheed Martin's Fort Worth factory in Texas, but is ...

F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)
ALIS - Sovereign data management allows foreign partners and military sales customers to block, delay, or pass through all structured data, including propulsion data, and gives the ability to filter certain parts of propulsion messages based on sovereign data requirements


Haven't you ever seen them, ask congress for money before? As well as CCA, NGAD, the FA-XX is also under funding pressure.

Australia is committed to Loyal wingman. The US has purchased two of ours for testing in collaboration and technology sharing .
"The further development of MQ-28A Ghost Bat comes after the Government agreed with a Defence Strategic Review recommendation that options be developed for collaboration and technology sharing with the United States. In line with the Government’s response, Defence signed a CCA development project arrangement with the United States on 30 March 2023."

I've also gave you an AvWeek link before. About Australia purchasing 6th gen to replace the Super Hornet / Growlers.

Last edited by golder; 18th Jun 2024 at 04:21.
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Old 18th Jun 2024, 06:58
  #968 (permalink)  
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Okay, so in a few replies to people here today, I've said more or less this:

"The F-35 is a great aircraft but it's a terrible program."

I could write some lengthy thread where I cite a bunch of systems engineering stuff, but here's a better way to explain things.​​​​​​​….


https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...038892422.html
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Old 18th Jun 2024, 16:09
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Good find, ORAC. The source is the real thing.
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Old 18th Jun 2024, 16:56
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Originally Posted by T28B
Suggestion to all.
Talk about the aircraft.
and take the personal attacks to pm
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Old 18th Jun 2024, 18:44
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An OLDie but a GOODie? UK ‘confident’ over JSF software — 09 Decr 2009
defencemanagement.com
““The Ministry of Defence has said it is confident it will receive software code that controls the Joint Strike Fighter, despite US assertions that they will not deliver the source code to any of the programme's international partners. An MoD spokesman said: “The Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is progressing well and the UK currently has the JSF data needed at this stage of the programme, and is confident that in future we will continue to receive the data needed to ensure that our requirements for operational sovereignty will be met.” “This remains the basis of the agreements reached with the US in 2006.”...

...In 2006, Lord Drayson had threatened British withdrawal from the JSF programme if the US did not provide the software. Later that year, Prime Minister Tony Blair and US President George Bush announced that Britain would be able to “successfully operate, upgrade, employ and maintain the Joint Strike Fighter such that the UK retains operational sovereignty of the aircraft.”
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Old 18th Jun 2024, 19:07
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Eglin getting two new F-35 labs 07 Apr 2015 David Tortorano
http://pensacolatoday.com/2015/04/eg...new-f-35-labs/
"...When the 513th EWS was activated in April 2010 to operate the $300 million Air Combat Command’s United States Reprogramming Lab (USRL), its task was to create, modify, validate and verify mission data files for the Air Force F-35A, Marine Corps F-35B and Navy F-35C. Being the sole provider of electronic warfare capability was a considerable undertaking.

The Pentagon had to do something to relieve the heavy workload of the Eglin lab. But there was another problem to address. It was the issue of access to source codes. The Pentagon has had a policy of never sharing source codes for any U.S. weapons system. But the F-35 is being developed by the United States, the primary funder, and partner nations who have spent millions. They wanted access to source codes to be able to modify data packages to suit their needs.

In October 2014, Lt. Gen. Chris Bogdan, executive director of the JSF Program Office, said a compromise was reached that would ease the Eglin lab workload and at the same time provide reprogramming labs for partner nations.

As a result of that compromise, there are now two mission data reprogramming centers: Reprogramming Center – East (RCEast) at Eglin, and Reprogramming Center – West (RC-West) at Naval Air Station Point Mugu, Calif. RC-West consists of the F-35 Reprogramming Laboratory (FRL), and its customers are Japan and Israel. Other nations will join that lab in the future.

RC-East, run by the 53rd Electronic Warfare Group (EWG), right now consists of the USRL run by the 513th EWS. In the near future, two more labs will be part of RCEast. In mid-2015, ground will be broken for the Australia, Canada, United Kingdom Reprogramming Lab (ACURL). Then in mid-2016, there will be a groundbreaking for the Norway, Italy Reprogramming Lab (NIRL). The labs will permit them to customize mission data that will be loaded on their planes.

“They will be manned by a combination of foreign nationals from each of those countries, as well as by U.S. government personnel and U.S. contractors,” said Perez.
______________

Lockheed Martin to upgrade F-35 mission data lab for Australia, Canada, and UK 16 Mar 2023 Gareth Jennings
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/a...-canada-and-uk
"The US Department of Defense (DoD) has contracted Lockheed Martin to establish full operating capability (FOC) of the Australia Canada United Kingdom Reprogramming Laboratory (ACURL) for the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). A company official told Janes on 16 March that a contract notification posted by the DoD the previous week pertained to establishing FOC for the ACURL in support of the F-35 Block 4 configuration.

“The ACURL is used to develop, verify, and validate mission data files and allows Australia, the UK, and Canada the capability to reprogramme F-35 mission data to quickly execute sovereign missions,” the official said. “Phase 1 established the initial operating capability for the laboratory, providing an initial facility, test line, and tools. Phase 2 provides the path to full operating capability & will support Block 4 configuration.”...”

Last edited by SpazSinbad; 18th Jun 2024 at 19:41. Reason: xtra quot
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Old 18th Jun 2024, 23:03
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Originally Posted by SpazSinbad
...
RC-East, run by the 53rd Electronic Warfare Group (EWG), right now consists of the USRL run by the 513th EWS. In the near future, two more labs will be part of RCEast. In mid-2015, ground will be broken for the Australia, Canada, United Kingdom Reprogramming Lab (ACURL). Then in mid-2016, there will be a groundbreaking for the Norway, Italy Reprogramming Lab (NIRL)
. The labs will permit them to customize mission data that will be loaded on their planes.

“They will be manned by a combination of foreign nationals from each of those countries, as well as by U.S. government personnel and U.S. contractors,” said Perez.
...
Hmm. That doesn't sound like having the source code to me. It sounds more like "you can use it here, under our supervision".
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Old 22nd Jun 2024, 15:03
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The straight dope is here, from the USAF organization itself: Nothing says "access to source code" quite like one-third of the crew in a USAF vault in Florida being Americans. By the way, where are the Israelis?

https://www.350sww.af.mil/Units/350t...roup/F-35-PSC/

But this is of course a mere excuse to announce the revised edition of The Book That Annoyed A Thousand Fans, now on Kindle too!

Amazon Amazon




Last edited by LowObservable; 22nd Jun 2024 at 15:11. Reason: word choice
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Old 23rd Jun 2024, 00:34
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Originally Posted by LowObservable
The straight dope is here, from the USAF organization itself: Nothing says "access to source code" quite like one-third of the crew in a USAF vault in Florida being Americans. By the way, where are the Israelis?...
I guess we won't know much - thanks for the link above. Meanwhile....
Italians produce first F-35 MDF 16 Dec 2022
https://www.350sww.af.mil/News/Displ...irst-f-35-mdf/
"Italy became the next F-35 Partner Support Complex (PSC) partner nation to complete its first Mission Data File (MDF) on its own in support of the Italian Air Force F-35 Lightning II fleet. The F-35 PSC, activated in 2016, is home to seven partner nations that have purchased F-35s from the U.S. and work with the U.S. on the development of MDFs....

...Aircraft rely on MDFs to provide pilots with the awareness of what potential threats may be in an area and how to counter them, such as radars and surface-to-air missiles (SAMs). The information comes from what aircraft sensors pick up during flights and is driven by the mission data. Upon landing, the pilots review their tapes and provide feedback on MDF performance to the mission data developers to improve future performance.

“The lab is really a hardware in the loop test facility, and we have effectively all the EW [Electromagnetic Warfare] equipment through the aircraft being stimulated by threat simulators and a master computer running the overall scenario,” said Kraus. “Our team is in there [the lab] watching screens like the cockpit screen to see what is happening and we have computers collecting data.”

The F-35 poses a greater challenge compared to legacy aircraft MDF development not only due to increase advanced capabilities, but also that the U.S. government policy requires MDF to be developed within the U.S....

...With the complete MDF in hand, the Italian Armed Forces will upload it to aircraft and test it in field and bring their findings back to the team here to continue to improve their data and their MDFs. This accomplishment also marks a milestone in the Italian F-35 fleet’s path towards Full Operational Capability (FOC).

“No one is ever going to fight alone,” said Kraus. “It’s always going to be a coalition and for us we’ll always go to someone else’s AOR [area of responsibility] so it’s going to be very helpful to have those relationships prebuilt and those CONOPS [concept of operations] of the aircraft established before we go to combat.”

Last edited by SpazSinbad; 23rd Jun 2024 at 00:46. Reason: xtra last para
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Old 23rd Jun 2024, 18:27
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Here is something you do not see often, Sywell this weekend.



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Old 27th Jun 2024, 22:12
  #977 (permalink)  
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https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...pgrade-delays/

Denmark to bring home F-35 jets from Arizona amid upgrade delays

PARIS — Denmark plans to bring home its six F-35 Joint Strike Fighters currently being used to train pilots in the U.S. as the delivery schedule for an upgraded version of the aircraft continues to slip.

The six Danish F-35 jets in TR-2 configuration stationed at Luke Air Force Base in Arizona will be repatriated to the Royal Danish Air Force’s Skrydstrup air base, the Defence Ministry said in a statement on Wednesday. They’ll join the four stealth fighters already there to bring the country’s operational F-35s to ten, as Denmark prepares to phase out its fleet of F-16 jets.

Lockheed Martin is running out of space to park undelivered F-35 jets amid hardware and software delays linked to the Technology Refresh 3 update, or TR-3, whose full delivery will be delayed into 2025, the U.S. Government Accountability Office reported in May. That’s disrupting fleet-replacement plans by the likes of Denmark, Belgium and Norway, whose F16s have been flying for more than 40 years, and whose fleets are counted in dozens of aircraft rather than hundreds.

“It’s very positive that we have now found a solution, so that the delays from the manufacturer affect us as little as possible,” Defence Minister Troels Lund Poulsen said in the statement. “F-35 fighter jets are a major investment for Denmark that will be important for our defense and security for many years to come, and it’s crucial that we follow the phase-in closely.”…..

Bringing home the TR-2 jets will allow Denmark to maintain the operational milestones for phasing in of the F-35 and increase the training level of pilots and support personnel at Skrydstrup, while allowing pilot training at Luke AFB to continue, the Defence Ministry said.

The Danish move feeds into fears by other European F-35 customers, present and future, that their carefully calibrated aircraft-delivery and upgrade schedules could be perturbed by the TR-3 saga.

While the Netherlands and Norway already operate fleets of more than 30 F-35 jets and therefore face less urgency than Denmark or a country such as Belgium, which is yet to receive its first F-35, the delays risk pushing back full operational capability.

Defense officials in Norway said they have made their concerns clear to the Pentagon’s Joint Program Office, which represents the U.S. and international governments involved in the F-35 program. Oslo’s fear in particular is Lockheed Martin feeding a salad of halfway solutions and different versions into the production pipeline that would grow to be unmanageable.

“We don’t want interim configurations,” said a Norwegian defense official, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss internal deliberations.

The Netherlands anticipated development delays and in late 2022 requested delivery of six aircraft in the TR-2 configuration rather than the upgraded version, saying deliveries could continue through to March, according to an annual government progress report published April 2……


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Old 28th Jun 2024, 12:43
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Originally Posted by SpazSinbad
I guess we won't know much - thanks for the link above. Meanwhile....
“No one is ever going to fight alone,” said Kraus. “It’s always going to be a coalition and for us we’ll always go to someone else’s AOR [area of responsibility] so it’s going to be very helpful to have those relationships prebuilt and those CONOPS [concept of operations] of the aircraft established before we go to combat.”
Is that a promise or a threat that nobody will be allowed to go it alone? :-) Only joking.

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Old 28th Jun 2024, 13:04
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Originally Posted by ORAC
Defense officials in Norway said they have made their concerns clear to the Pentagon’s Joint Program Office, which represents the U.S. and international governments involved in the F-35 program. Oslo’s fear in particular is Lockheed Martin feeding a salad of halfway solutions and different versions into the production pipeline that would grow to be unmanageable.

“We don’t want interim configurations,” said a Norwegian defense official, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss internal deliberations.
Ha ha. Norway, which announced in 2008 that it would have 48 F-35s in service by 2020 for $53 million each, went out of its way to trash the competition, and had a government official doing PR for Lockheed Martin. Qu'ils mangent du lutefisk.

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLK450928/

Last edited by LowObservable; 28th Jun 2024 at 23:18. Reason: typo
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Old 29th Jun 2024, 08:54
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Originally Posted by LowObservable
Ha ha. Norway, which announced in 2008 that it would have 48 F-35s in service by 2020 for $53 million each, went out of its way to trash the competition, and had a government official doing PR for Lockheed Martin. Qu'ils mangent du lutefisk.
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLK450928/
In all fairness all governments do this all the time. Calculate most optimistic figures for things they really want to do/buy (and pessimistic figures for things they don't want). Nothing new here.
In 2008 all Gen 4+ models were realistically in the ballpark of 80 - 90Mio $. No chance in hell the most sophisticated one of the lot would only be 60% the cost of the others. It is a way to justify things where you can't/don't want to really give the real reasons to the public (Stealth Fighter bombers were somewhat problematic in historically peace- minded societies like many in Western/Northern Europe - at least before 2022).
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