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The F-35 thread, Mk II

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The F-35 thread, Mk II

Old 19th Oct 2023, 23:44
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First F-35B Shipborne Rolling Vertical Landing on HMSPWLS
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Old 19th Oct 2023, 23:59
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Salute!

Well, Spaz, we get to see a short landing on a boat, finally.

A year or two ago I saw one here at Eglin and thot it was no big deal. The jet had all the doors open and came in fairly slow, then plopped down and rolled a few hundred feet and turned off.

I am not sure what the deal is with the "rolling" landing. Cannot be that hard, so maybe it's the support once on the deck. On a big boat it should be a faster trunaround than trapping on a wire.

Gums sends...
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Old 20th Oct 2023, 00:38
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Originally Posted by gums
Salute!

Well, Spaz, we get to see a short landing on a boat, finally. A year or two ago I saw one here at Eglin and thot it was no big deal. The jet had all the doors open and came in fairly slow, then plopped down and rolled a few hundred feet and turned off. I am not sure what the deal is with the "rolling" landing. Cannot be that hard, so maybe it's the support once on the deck. On a big boat it should be a faster trunaround than trapping on a wire. Gums sends...
Aaah, the first SRVL Shipborne Rolling Vertical Landing was back 0n 14 Oct 2018: Aviation history made on board HMS Queen Elizabeth | Navy Lookout
Yes DECK LANDINGS look easy when done expertly. I watched an RAN Sea Venom arrest onboard HMAS Melbourne in the middle of Jervis Bay with strong winds blowing. This was mid 1966 and I was new to the RAN and Naval Aviation. I thought "I can do this". SURE. That Sea Venom was slowed by the strong wind and ship speed but arrested and fixed wing flying was stopped due to the weather. We had to be disembarked by Iroquois back to CRESWELL - my first of the few chopper rides I experienced. :-) I believe there has been a lot of info posted on the SRVL over the years. It has to be carried out precisely with the LSO watching for any errors. In benign conditions the approach & landing to a full stop looks easy peasy; but then throw in some bad weather and see how easy 'tis. This is what these tests (with MARINE test pilots no less) will find out - we have been told. Limits to the variables (WOD & aircraft weight, sea state, wind & direction) will be discovered with a 'recovery bulletin' & SHOL [Ship-[STOVL]-Helicopter Operating Limits] diagram published later (which is likely never seen by the public).

Link to this SHOL diagram for DT-1 F-35B tests aboard USS Wasp back in 2011 no longer works. :-(



Last edited by SpazSinbad; 20th Oct 2023 at 00:53. Reason: SHOL
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Old 20th Oct 2023, 13:24
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First SRVL was carried out on HMS Hermes at 1100Z on 1st May 1982. The manoeuvre was not cleared at the time!

I claim my £50!

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Old 20th Oct 2023, 15:10
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Mogwi:
Did the test pilots file a letter of protest, that some operator was horning in on their turf?
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Old 20th Oct 2023, 16:51
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Originally Posted by gums
Salute!

Well, Spaz, we get to see a short landing on a boat, finally.

A year or two ago I saw one here at Eglin and thot it was no big deal. The jet had all the doors open and came in fairly slow, then plopped down and rolled a few hundred feet and turned off.

I am not sure what the deal is with the "rolling" landing. Cannot be that hard, so maybe it's the support once on the deck. On a big boat it should be a faster trunaround than trapping on a wire.

Gums sends...
The "interesting" part is that while this trial has a nice big empty deck with plenty of space, doing it operationally on a deck littered with parked, fuelled and armed aircraft is likely to be a very different matter. Couple of hundred feet tops to bring twenty-odd tons moving at 30kts relative to a halt using only brakes (no reverse thrust) and on a deck that may well be a bit on the slick side.

Mog did it in even worse conditions (smaller deck, definitely more aircraft on deck, plus roughers) but I hope he'd admit it wasn't from choice - nor for the faint hearted!
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Old 20th Oct 2023, 17:20
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Below is an Old description of the 'process' along with what the current SRVL tests may achieve. Apparently pilots in the BAE sim have requested parked aircraft to aligned down the deck in a particular fashion IIRC with noses pointing aft (with wind down jet pipe).
UK gears up for F-35 Jamie Hunter 21 Jun 2018 https://www.keymilitary.com/article/uk-gears-f-35
"...“There are multiple levels of flight control augmentation through the systems automation that we have in the F-35. The pilot essentially invokes the level of augmentation they want. So, there’s a fairly large matrix of test points for each event. Usually going to a ship for the first time you’d expect to start out with minimum levels of augmentation. The aircraft cannot ‘hook up’ to the Queen Elizabeth at this point – the F-35 has the capability but the ship doesn’t yet have JPALS [the GPS based Joint Precision Approach and Landing System]. However, some systems on the aeroplane can interpret data from the carrier, such as determining its speed. JPALS is ultimately designed to give the F-35 auto-land capability; the pilot will simply press a button and the aircraft [VL] lands.

“We will fly down the deck centreline for SRVL, and our modelling for this work is very good, but we know we are going to learn some things when we actually get to the ship. The main challenge is physically stopping on the flight deck in a safe fashion. It’s all about the flying qualities, the friction on the deck, the visual landing aids and how the helmet-mounted display [HMD] performs.”

Previously known as the Bedford Array, the SRVL Array is a set of visual aids on the deck that the pilot must line up with the HMD symbology. Wilson said that aligning the two is “tricky”.

While proving out the SRVL modelling isn’t a focus of the initial embarkation, Wilson said there may be a chance for an early ‘look’ at this if the conditions are right. “If we had really good weather and our primary VL envelope expansion testing is on track we might pick up some SRVL work. However, getting a VL envelope for operational testing is the main aim – they don’t need SRVL initially.” In addition, the carrier’s ski jump will feature on every launch. Wilson explained that the F-35 suits the ski jump well: “It’s a very straightforward manoeuvre for the pilot.”

Peters [Martin Peters has a vital role to play in the development of the type. He is the company’s F-35 flight test manager and test lead for STOVL] added a little more detail: “We’ll start off in the heart of the flight envelope for the aircraft and the ship, with fairly nominal winds down the deck and steady ship motion. But, by the time we’ve completed the third phase of testing in 2019 [now [b]now!] we will have flown in up to sea state 6 with 50kts of wind over the deck, with big crosswinds and the ship pitching and rolling.”
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Old 20th Oct 2023, 19:13
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Originally Posted by Mogwi
First SRVL was carried out on HMS Hermes at 1100Z on 1st May 1982. The manoeuvre was not cleared at the time!

I claim my £50!

Mog
Cough HMS Eagle 1970 Cough
Yours was a top effort though and it helped no-end that we could casually refer to it some years later to our (soon to be) hosts in the Marine Nationale when convincing them to let us have a go at it on their deck.

Last edited by NoHoverstop; 20th Oct 2023 at 23:41. Reason: I seem to have forgotten the correct use of apostrophes
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Old 21st Oct 2023, 07:01
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10 Aug 1971 my first Deck Landings ever (only A4G rollers - not qualified to arrest & cat) aboard HMS Eagle visiting Oz East Coast on farewell tour. Jeepers the deck was bumpy (compared later to HMAS Melbourne). 1970 RAF Harriers onboard: http://www.axfordsabode.org.uk/pdf-docs/eagle03.pdf




Last edited by SpazSinbad; 21st Oct 2023 at 07:22. Reason: +jpg
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Old 21st Oct 2023, 08:47
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HMS Prince of Wales - hosts flight trials off the US coast (Part 1)



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Old 22nd Oct 2023, 02:26
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NOT a DIM view but an old SIM view of the SRVL from BAE:
SRVL F-35B Demo CVF Sim + extras [stop distance]
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Old 22nd Oct 2023, 10:13
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Sorry if this is a crab question but why does SRVL require special visual references and what does the “Bedford Array” do exactly? Is is equivalent to the mirror for conventional carriers?
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Old 22nd Oct 2023, 12:42
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Originally Posted by Timelord
Sorry if this is a crab question but why does SRVL require special visual references and what does the “Bedford Array” do exactly? Is is equivalent to the mirror for conventional carriers?
I'm not the right person to answer but there are some useful pictures:



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Old 22nd Oct 2023, 16:07
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Thank you
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Old 22nd Oct 2023, 19:45
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A 222 page PDF of UK F-35B SRVL goodness via Warton Sim & VAAC Harrier Program + SHOL explained a bonus.

F-35B SRVL INFO 30 Dec 2018 PRN pp 222.pdf (11Mb) [PRN=reprinted so any URLs not live]

http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=29230 (PDF 11Mb)

F-35B SRVL Warton Shipborne Rolling Vertical Land Sim ZOOM [vHUD view]


Very rough video transcript: "Establishing a 2.5° glide slope relative to the ship by placing the SRVV on the drop line. De-cluttering [the vHUD]. And the next event will be starting the decel when the donut reaches a required decel of 0.15G. Nearly there. There it is, T6 press. Checking the command, it says 58. The next event is levelling off at 200 feet valid. QD cell rate is tracking the donut, levelling off. Looking for 200 feet, there it is on the route. Checking the speed, approaching 100 knots, looking good. Bedford array is in sight, looking for the white aim points. As the glide slope scale approaches the aim point, the red dot is on the target. The grey is in sight looking for the white aim points. As the Glideslope Scale approaches the aim point, starting to round the corner, and putting the SRVV in the middle of Glideslope Scale, back drive. Checking the speed, 58 knots, excellent speed. Keeping the SRVV close to the Glideslope Scale, which I've got aligned with the aim point. Looking for Decking, there's a Decking. Impact. On the brakes. Full braking using nose wheel steering to stop. It's an easy stop. 350 feet to go. And taxi clear."

Last edited by SpazSinbad; 23rd Oct 2023 at 10:06. Reason: +transcript
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Old 23rd Oct 2023, 01:40
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OOps did not realise the issue of the F-16net URL above. Copy the URL then paste it into your browser window for the download. DO NOT just click on the URL in the post above because there be dragons. Meanwhile a 12 year old image from a USN 'Paddles' Pub shows what was the F-35B vHUD view back then - no point in posting the now defunct URL from whence came it. An excerpt from a JUSTin Paines story about SRVL (from page 3&4 of above PDF cited) will follow soonest.
BRIEFING: SHIPBORNE ROLLING VERTICAL LANDING [SRVL] c.2008 Richard Scott
“...Landing aids ...Bedford Array, which takes inputs from inertial references to stabilise against deck motions (pitch and heave). The software-controlled lighting pattern provides an aim-point for the recovering pilot. Justin Paines, development test pilot for QinetiQ, said: ...the real task drivers for the manoeuvre were higher sea states and night/poor weather conditions.”..." http://www.zinio.com/rea der.jsp?issue=384167391 &o=int&prev=sub&p=28

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Old 23rd Oct 2023, 01:56
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F-35B and QEC integration testing [Royal Aeronautical Society]

BAE Sim F-35B vHUD view of an SRVL approach.


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Old 23rd Oct 2023, 02:14
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SRVL bring back potential in conditions shown (subject to ongoing testing I guess). OLD URL no workee:
https://vtol.org/store/product/devel...craft-9024.cfm

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Old 23rd Oct 2023, 21:15
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Different vantage point views of the 1st SRVL PWLS DT-3 19 Oct 2023 Maj. Paul Gucwa USMC, with a WAVE OFF then some SKI Jumping.

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Old 24th Oct 2023, 01:10
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HMS Prince of Wales crosses the Atlantic and begins developmental flying trials 23 Oct 2023 PHOTO ESSAY
https://www.navylookout.com/hms-prin...flying-trials/

JPG: https://www.navylookout.com/wp-conte...overhead-2.jpg

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