Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

UK Strategic Defence Review 2020 - get your bids in now ladies & gents

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

UK Strategic Defence Review 2020 - get your bids in now ladies & gents

Old 11th Feb 2020, 10:43
  #221 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: England
Posts: 322
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by BVRAAM View Post
Can I respectfully remind you that the F-22 was designed as a specialist air superiority fighter. It was given a limited air to ground capability to allow the Brass to present the case that they are making full use of their expensive assets.

Therefore, no, the F-35 cannot perform as well as the F-22 at 60,000' because it can't even get there, much less punch off an AMRAAM at said height at M2 and perform tactical manoeuvres (thanks to vectored thrust) that other fast jets simply cannot do.
In an era of finite budgets and multi-role fighters, the aircraft that can do the most with the least are "better" and more desirable than those that can't, which is exactly why Project CENTURION was applied to the Typhoon. The F-35 was designed to be very good at a lot of things, not to excel at one thing. Therefore it is absolutely better than the F-22 as an all-round platform.

My personal favourite FJs of all time, are the F-15C and Tornado F.3 - two specialist air defence aircraft, designed for very different areas of air defence. From a personal level I don't like multi-role, but it's not about personal preference, as much as it is the needs of a country verses the money they have to spend.
Wow. Not very often you hear someone say that Tornado F3 was such a good aircraft.
It was and still often is criticised for not being able to things it was simply not designed to do.

I was involved with the engine programme and I do agree with you by the way.
Buster15 is offline  
Old 11th Feb 2020, 12:35
  #222 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Longton, Lancs, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 1,527
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Accepted BV

But as you accept that multi-role is more cost-effective and confers greater military flexibility, is your dislike simply cosmetic?
jindabyne is offline  
Old 11th Feb 2020, 13:54
  #223 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: London
Posts: 453
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
What chance some more P-8s?

Mil-26Man is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2020, 07:42
  #224 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 6,271
Received 110 Likes on 65 Posts
Another Admiral banging on the Times today about the cost of HS2 and re the "small" cost of the Carriers
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 12th Feb 2020, 07:43
  #225 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 6,271
Received 110 Likes on 65 Posts
Originally Posted by Mil-26Man View Post

That makes sense - 9 aircraft is unlikely to be enough - and you KNOW they'll be diverted to all sorts of other things maritime
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2020, 00:49
  #226 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Nevada, USA
Posts: 1,488
Received 12 Likes on 8 Posts
Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
That makes sense - 9 aircraft is unlikely to be enough - and you KNOW they'll be diverted to all sorts of other things maritime
See my detailed comments on the P-8A thread - from the top expert opinion available - on the number that would be nice to have.
#282 here: RAF Poseidon - Not too long to wait?
RAFEngO74to09 is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2020, 07:41
  #227 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 6,271
Received 110 Likes on 65 Posts
Ministerial reshuffle today folks - lets see if there's another Defence Minister...............
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2020, 08:13
  #228 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Here
Posts: 1,594
Received 7 Likes on 7 Posts
Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
That makes sense - 9 aircraft is unlikely to be enough - and you KNOW they'll be diverted to all sorts of other things maritime
The initial number always had to be 9, just because that was the number of Nimrod MRA4s that they were prepared to accept. It would have been hard to convince the Treasury to fund more of an aircraft you were claiming was more capable than the one it was being procured instead of. The advantage of P-8 always was they COULD order more if they wanted to. There were never going to be more than 9 MRA4s
Davef68 is offline  
Old 22nd Feb 2020, 16:05
  #229 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 6,271
Received 110 Likes on 65 Posts
Todays "times says the process is "in turmoil" & "unravelling"

They're arguing over who sits on which committees and panels and he timetable. "Consternation about the number of has-beens involved" "the prevailing view in No 10 is that the UK has slipped into being an "ambient power""

Whatever that is.....................
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 22nd Feb 2020, 17:43
  #230 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Under a recently defunct flight path.
Age: 76
Posts: 1,328
Received 5 Likes on 2 Posts
Article mentioned in #238.

Boris Johnson’s foreign policy, defence and security review in turmoil, say insiders
Lyneham Lad is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2020, 10:14
  #231 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: stoke
Age: 60
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I consider the MOD budget a little like an exceptionally poorly run project to put a decent AV suite in my living room.

I have a budget, but have several variables to consider- the screen, the media player, the discs and the electric bill (the overhead). So if I buy the 8k beauty, with many of all the best bells and whistles, you'd expect me to compromise on the other two, as the electricity is a fixed overhead? I need both the player and the discs for the first bit to actually work- but I bought the expensive 8k beauty, so it needs a fantastic feed for it to show me it's all. Now my budget is blown, but the first two are pretty pointless without the discs. I can go with less bells and whistles here on the media player, and so I now have a minuscule budget for the discs released 5 years ago; I now can't pay the electric bill and the partner isn't able to watch Love Island. I didn't do very well, did I?

Read across to spanking new kit, some of which is for showmanship, then the driver for the kit that is spanking, then the support contract; last and least to consider is the people. For any western company having to cancel courses, travel, development or team building in months 11 and 12 of any financial year is poor housekeeping.
Cummings is hated, but driven and apparently quite ruthless; he will have a field day in the crappy living room he and his team are going to look in. If he asks the right questions then it will be better than watching Top Gun 2.

Do they still sell Matsui?

Last edited by finningleyprince; 23rd Feb 2020 at 10:37.
finningleyprince is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2020, 10:33
  #232 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 6,271
Received 110 Likes on 65 Posts
"Cummings is hated, but driven and apparently quite ruthless; he will have a field day in the crappy living room he and his team are going to look in."

Indeed - I'd love to be a fly on the wall when he starts asking questions - no doubt a load of people are currently sweating desperately trying to avoid an appearance in the Torture Chamber................
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2020, 15:38
  #233 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Dundee
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Lyneham Lad View Post
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/t...erts-jb99dw5bb


Hmm.

Last time I met George Robinson he was, stumbling and incoherent and at a RAF Leuchars open day, trying to find his way to the Legion and B of B veterans area, I was "somewhat taken aback" to see the defence secretary in such a state at 1400 ish so he didn't get a salute either.

Tut tut naughty me.
weemonkey is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2020, 17:00
  #234 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: where-ever nav's chooses....
Posts: 781
Received 10 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
"Cummings is hated, but driven and apparently quite ruthless; he will have a field day in the crappy living room he and his team are going to look in."

Indeed - I'd love to be a fly on the wall when he starts asking questions - no doubt a load of people are currently sweating desperately trying to avoid an appearance in the Torture Chamber................
Thatís all well and fine.

The key to making anything happen in Defence is actually making sure it happens. Unless Cummings is in post for 5+ years, and maintains a [email protected] like focus on implementing whatever is decided, the MoD will just slow-roll stuff it doesnít like and ignore deadlines...
alfred_the_great is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2020, 19:03
  #235 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Ibstock
Posts: 57
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Originally Posted by alfred_the_great View Post
Thatís all well and fine.

The key to making anything happen in Defence is actually making sure it happens. Unless Cummings is in post for 5+ years, and maintains a [email protected] like focus on implementing whatever is decided, the MoD will just slow-roll stuff it doesnít like and ignore deadlines...
Cummings has an idiot detector, which is rather likely to flatten its battery, and quickly. The chances are heís a character that wonít put up with nonsense!

Last edited by Countdown begins; 24th Feb 2020 at 05:34.
Countdown begins is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2020, 07:58
  #236 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 6,271
Received 110 Likes on 65 Posts
Today's paper says there will be a full review of Foreign Policy and commitments ahead of the review - The Defence review results are now penciled in for "autumn 2020". The "most sweeping review of defence & security since the end of the Cold War"

Also floated are an increase in overall budget to address some of the "black holes", a cut in the size of the army (as they can't recruit or retain anywhere near their current planned strength), especially armour, Cummings to be in charge of the overall reviews....

Last edited by Asturias56; 26th Feb 2020 at 08:23.
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2020, 12:17
  #237 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by VinRouge View Post
My prediction is the army’s armoured cavalry units and larger non-spearhead infantry units are going to take an absolute hammering. If it isn’t high tech or specialised, it’s going to go.

This nonsense of every army unit having its own barber, admin, cook and bottle washer needs to go for cost saving too. They can easily do all that as a non formed unit when they deploy. How many army support personnel for each bayonet carrier again? Unfortunately fat useless little ex army twerps like Mark Francois will probably block it.
I am Dominic Cummings and I claim my 10 pounds...Mass has a quality of its own..... until it doesnt.

They are going to use the Defence Budget to directly support UK High Tech industrial development and research, a la DARPA. So, if I were a betting man, firms focused on Cyber, space, unmanned systems (across the spectrum) and communications systems are going to do very well out of this. And it wont be BWOS that benefits, it will be small, niche companies imho.

Time to get rid of dead wood and focus where we can have the biggest leverage globally for the smallest buck. The days of gunboat diplomacy for the UK are over.
VinRouge is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2020, 23:03
  #238 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Here
Posts: 1,594
Received 7 Likes on 7 Posts
I'm still uneasy at having someone with Cumming's Russian connections in such an important position
Davef68 is offline  
Old 27th Feb 2020, 08:08
  #239 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 6,271
Received 110 Likes on 65 Posts
"Cummings, the divisive senior adviser to the prime minister, Boris Johnson, spent three years in Russia from 1994 to 1997 after he graduated from Oxford University with a first in ancient and modern history"

Ah yes - the start of the Wild West years in Russian economic banditry... - t me that shows he was a damn sight cleverer than most - the City of London only started to turn up big time around the end of the decade...... Very much doubt that makes him a security risk
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 27th Feb 2020, 18:50
  #240 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 14,604
Received 319 Likes on 149 Posts
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...dget-overspend

British military could be left depleted after £13bn shortfall
ORAC is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.