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Lossiemouth Upgrades

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Lossiemouth Upgrades

Old 19th Nov 2019, 13:01
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Can I ask where you guys get the impression that Scotland wants Independence?

The SNP do, but in a referendum in 2014, 52% of people voted to stay as part of the UK/GB, call it what you will.

Ms Sturgeon, and her hordes of 16 and 17 year old numpties who were allowed to vote in that ref. seem to think it's a done deal - but as far as most sensible people are concerned, it's not.

Anyway, if she gets her way (and please Boris, don't let her), and she loses again, we'll have another shot in four or five years. It's like kids who want a sweetie, and don't get it - they keep saying 'please, please, please' until they get their own way, and so much for the last 'once in a generation ref.

As Ruth Davidson ( former leader of Conservatives In Scotland) said of wee Nic 'she goes to sleep thinking of ways to get Scotland Independence, and wakes up thinking the same' - never bothering about things like education, health service, etc, that a Government is supposed to bother about.

Rant over.
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Old 19th Nov 2019, 14:05
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by HAS59 View Post
Video Mixdown,

I guess the Scottish Independence Party (for that is what they are) think that because income tax raised in Scotland was used (in part) to buy these defence assets, that have some ownership of them.
As many have pointed out, there is a manning issue. There are, I suspect too few people trained in the broad range of skills required who would wish to locate in Alba.
This could be rectified in time, but it would entail a 'Free Scotland' to either set up training schools or pay for the tuition at English, or other units.
Their 'wish list' of assets to which they feel 'entitled to' are beyond what they have costed in terms of setting up and running.
Like most of their manifesto ... it is deeply flawed.
As always, there are many more questions than answers before we can have a clear picture. Many of these questions are contained in this parliamentary paper. One thing is for sure, however, if a newly independent England wishes to maintain an independent submarine based nuclear deterrent, there will be a massive cost of replacing or renewing the Clyde facilities (Faslane & Coulport) in say Portsmouth or Devonport. As with all splits, there will be NEGOTIATIONS on an equitable split of joint assets, but at the moment I'd say Scotland has something of an advantage. As I posited in a previous post above, where would independent England locate its QRA? QRA from Leeming to the northern North Sea wouldn't be very 'Q'.

https://publications.parliament.uk/p.../152/15208.htm
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Old 19th Nov 2019, 16:38
  #43 (permalink)  
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One thing is for sure, however, if a newly independent England wishes to maintain an independent submarine based nuclear deterrent,
Cough.. Cough, surely we will still be a United Kingdom, simply sans one member.
Remember, it's you leaving us, not us leaving you
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Old 19th Nov 2019, 16:39
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Video Mixdown View Post
Agreed, but itís equally possible to argue that being a member of an organisation that has used your membership fees to buy assets doesnít entitle you to take a portion of those assets with you if you decide to leave.
Although somewhat off-topic I believe that the UK's argument that their contributions towards the costs of building various EU buildings should be put against the amount that we supposedly owed the EU didn't get very far.
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Old 19th Nov 2019, 21:24
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Cough.. Cough, surely we will still be a United Kingdom, simply sans one member.
Remember, it's you leaving us, not us leaving you
A "United Kingdom" of what? The Union of England and Scotland from 1707 is called Great Britain (Article 1, Act of Union, 1707). Great Britain united with Ireland (then one single country) in 1800 to become the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Upon partition of Ireland in 1922 this became the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. If Scotland and England split, Great Britain ceases to exist. So what would you call what's left? Bear in mind the real possibility of an executed Brexit leading to a reunited Ireland (where demographically the population will anyway be majority Catholic by 2025).
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Old 19th Nov 2019, 21:29
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by nimrodel View Post
Can I ask where you guys get the impression that Scotland wants Independence?

The SNP do, but in a referendum in 2014, 52% of people voted to stay as part of the UK/GB, call it what you will.

Ms Sturgeon, and her hordes of 16 and 17 year old numpties who were allowed to vote in that ref. seem to think it's a done deal - but as far as most sensible people are concerned, it's not.

Anyway, if she gets her way (and please Boris, don't let her), and she loses again, we'll have another shot in four or five years. It's like kids who want a sweetie, and don't get it - they keep saying 'please, please, please' until they get their own way, and so much for the last 'once in a generation ref.

As Ruth Davidson ( former leader of Conservatives In Scotland) said of wee Nic 'she goes to sleep thinking of ways to get Scotland Independence, and wakes up thinking the same' - never bothering about things like education, health service, etc, that a Government is supposed to bother about.

Rant over.
Little bit insulting to 16 & 17 year olds. In actual fact, at the time of the 2014 Referendum there were many mock referenda in schools around Scotland. It might surprise you to learn that the school votes were almost all 50:50 on the Scottish Independence issue. They do have minds of their own and are able to use them, despite your trite little comment.
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 00:18
  #47 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by alwayslookingup View Post
A "United Kingdom" of what? The Union of England and Scotland from 1707 is called Great Britain (Article 1, Act of Union, 1707). Great Britain united with Ireland (then one single country) in 1800 to become the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Upon partition of Ireland in 1922 this became the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. If Scotland and England split, Great Britain ceases to exist. So what would you call what's left? Bear in mind the real possibility of an executed Brexit leading to a reunited Ireland (where demographically the population will anyway be majority Catholic by 2025).
I'm sure the Welsh will appreciate you wiping them off the map and also out of the U.K
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 07:11
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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You presume wrong.
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 12:26
  #49 (permalink)  
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?
..................
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 13:51
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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When Scotland goes Independent we wouldn't want our frontline assets in a foreign country?
We've had our frontline assets in foreign countries before when facing a threat. RAF Germany worked fine, if Scotland (and Wales) went independent then RAF Scotland (RAF Wales) would work just as well.
These aren't England's assets I'm afraid chaps, but the UK's. If the UK were to dissolve then these UK assets would likely have to be divvied-up between the (former) constituent members, as was the case for the Soviet Union/Yugoslavia etc.

In these cases this was mostly done on a 'whatever's on your territory is yours' kind-of-a-fashion. On that basis, the P-8s would be Scotland's.
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 15:20
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Mil-26Man
Flawed logic there old chap ... The UK Independent Deterrent is in Scottish territory - there's no way that this asset would end up in Scottish hands, nor would Scotland get the P-8 Fleet. The model that works is that of 'UK' assets based in former UK locations, owned by UK but providing local revenue for the host nation.
In any 'divvied-up' scenario see post 18 above for some light on the subject.
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 15:26
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by nimrodel View Post
The SNP do, but in a referendum in 2014, 52% of people voted to stay as part of the UK/GB, call it what you will.
It was 55%. You appear to be getting your referendum results confused.

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Old 20th Nov 2019, 15:35
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by HAS59 View Post
Mil-26Man
Flawed logic there old chap ... The UK Independent Deterrent is in Scottish territory - there's no way that this asset would end up in Scottish hands, nor would Scotland get the P-8 Fleet. The model that works is that of 'UK' assets based in former UK locations, owned by UK but providing local revenue for the host nation.
In any 'divvied-up' scenario see post 18 above for some light on the subject.
I agree with all of that (except your flawed logic opening gambit). They are all UK assets, not English ones. My point was that if the UK dissolves (ie, not just Scotland leaves but the UK ceases to be), these shared UK assets do not automatically or legally revert to becoming English assets, as seemed to be the suggestion being made in some of the earlier posts. If that wasn't the suggestion, then no harm.
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 18:06
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SamYeager View Post
Although somewhat off-topic I believe that the UK's argument that their contributions towards the costs of building various EU buildings should be put against the amount that we supposedly owed the EU didn't get very far.
On the contrary - I believe that that is a perfectly valid "EU approved" precedent to be quoted - if and when!

Jack
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 22:44
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post


I'm sure the Welsh will appreciate you wiping them off the map and also out of the U.K
So, enlighten me then. Because I was always under the impression Wales is a principality, of England, hence the Prince of Wales. Or am I wrong?
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 22:57
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by HAS59 View Post
Mil-26Man
Flawed logic there old chap ... The UK Independent Deterrent is in Scottish territory - there's no way that this asset would end up in Scottish hands, nor would Scotland get the P-8 Fleet. The model that works is that of 'UK' assets based in former UK locations, owned by UK but providing local revenue for the host nation.
In any 'divvied-up' scenario see post 18 above for some light on the subject.
I hate to say, but if Scotland becomes Independent and the SNP is successful in the ensuing General Election, then negotiations will immediately commence on the continued status of the submarine based nuclear deterrent based in Scottish waters. As I discussed above, if the fleet and operations were to be relocated south of the border, an independent England would have to finance the leasing/replacement of the four subs, the warhead handling facility (currently Coulport) and the dock/refit area, Faslane, and the ship lift. Cost of this will run into billions, difficult when Englands economy and GDP will automatically reduce by circa 8.5% on becoming independent. And that doesn't take into account the loss of approx 80% of the oil and gas reserves that will devolve to Scotland. Instead of making silly statements on providence and divvy up of joint assets, why not get into a negotiation mode? And, as I've said at least twice above, how will a newly independent England mount a QRA from within its own borders? QRA from Leeming wouldn't be very Q.
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Old 21st Nov 2019, 23:12
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by HAS59 View Post
You forgot to mention the Wales and Berwick Act 1746 in the union. As far as Wales goes ... it lasted until the Welsh Language Act in 1967.
As for my awkward little hometown (Berwick upon Tweed) the act was still in force until 1978 when Berwick was placed in England (for now as we say)
Thought Berwick became English in 1482 when Richard, Duke of Gloucester (later Richard III) recaptured the town.....?
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Old 21st Nov 2019, 23:19
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by nimrodel View Post
Can I ask where you guys get the impression that Scotland wants Independence?

The SNP do, but in a referendum in 2014, 52% of people voted to stay as part of the UK/GB, call it what you will.
In 2014 45% of Scots who voted, voted for independence. Five years on, the Scots have seen Brexit 'imposed' by the English, and five more years of 'Tory austerity', my impression is that support for independence and hostility to the Union has increased pretty markedly. Has it tipped as far as 51%? No-one knows for sure, but I suspect that in any Indyref 2, Sturgeon would get her way, unless it happens to coincide with the trial of the odious Mr Salmond........
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Old 22nd Nov 2019, 07:11
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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As jolly as all this politics stuff is any chance of an actual update on the matter in hand, from an old ex-kipper mate?

Specifically, when do we expect to sent the first operational sortie out of Lossie?

Since I know people can be a bit slippery with the "truth" in these days of fake news, maybe it would be of help if I set down my own (very personal) definition of what a proper operational sortie is...

A bunch of guys n gals living on or near said RAF base pitch up at oh oh god it's early to get briefed by a bunch of other guys n gals also living on or near said RAF Base.

Said bunch bus out and strap on their shiny new four-jet, which has been prepped by a bunch of other guys n gals... (you get the picture)

Some long, or not so long, hours later, shiny new four-jet arrives home and one bunch is debriefed by another bunch.

The flying bunch head to scruffs bar (or bars, if our bunch is still mixed rank) for a proper debrief.

Some hours later, smelling of curry, beer and whatever the shiny new jet uses for hydraulic power, our heroic bunch arrive home and try and convince their wives, husband, mixed-gender partners, to bump uglies.

With mixed success.

So when is this expected to happen for the first time?
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Old 22nd Nov 2019, 09:36
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Mentioning Salmon and Sturgeon in the same sentence gives the impression that there is something "fishy" about the SNP. Wonder what the next SNP leader's name might be?
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