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Germany Plans to Renege on Pledge to Raise Military Spending, Defying Trump

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Germany Plans to Renege on Pledge to Raise Military Spending, Defying Trump

Old 19th Mar 2019, 10:44
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by t43562 View Post
Haven't they? How much is enough?
Whilst I absolutely believe Germany should set a better example in NATO and spend more on Defence, I think there are broader strategic issues at play. Amongst these is the contribution that Germany has made to the financial and political stability of Europe. This has made Europe more secure (alongside many other contributions from many other countries and supra-national organisations). I acknowledge that some of Germany’s behaviours haven’t always helped, but strategic effect is nuanced and far more than just about how much is spent on Defence. Credit (at leas some) where it is due?
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 11:07
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Germany. has a commitment to fund NATO and a failure in the person of Merkel.

She hates being shown to be what she is and is in trouble at home because of her policies.

The German Nation must fulfill its obligations under the NATO Treaty....just as the United States is obliged to fulfill its obligations.

Is it time to put an end to US involvement in NATO....after all we have two rather large bodies of water between us and Europe....and we are energy independent.

Is the UK and Europe energy independent....if not....then they are beholden to whoever supplies their energy needs.

My People are tired of War....and we have a President that does not want to get us into any unless it is in our direct definable National Security Interests.

If Merkel thinks she can trump Trump....that might very well be her last swing at the bat.

The Germans would be a lot better off without her and her Leftist policies.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 11:21
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Is it time to put an end to US involvement in NATO....after all we have two rather large bodies of water between us and Europe....and we are energy independent.
https://www.rferl.org/a/us-troops-co.../29812037.html

Considering the US has spent vast sums over the years sweet talking countries into baseing US troops in their countries to project their presence the world over, with the advantages that confers in their ability to strike from close range.
Faced with the costs that Trump wants to foist upon those countries, one wonders how the US would react to those countries refusing to abide and asked the US to close it's bases and leave. Imagine if they lost their bases in the Med, Germany or the UK and Diego García , the likes of the strikes on Libya, Syria or Iraq would suddenly have got a harder proposition to undertake.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 11:31
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Is this not more of a comment on the incredibly weak German economy (they can't afford to spend more) rather than a political declaration (we don't want to spend more)?

Top economists slash their 2019 growth forecast for Germany

German growth rate to fall sharply this year, Ifo warns

German industrial production drops unexpectedly
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 11:37
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...after all we have two rather large bodies of water between us and Europe...
Well, one body of water and that body of water is the same now as it was in 1917 and 1941.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 11:50
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Originally Posted by West Coast View Post


Are you kidding? 2009 Gazprom shut off the spigot. I get it, your Vlad’s apologist, but damn, 2009 wasn’t that long ago.
Russia did not turn off the taps to refuse Germany gas. It was because Ukraine refused to pay its bills. This is why Nordstream 2 and SudStream have been built to end Ukraines attempt at blackmail which was happening. Stop with the personal abuse and focus on the subject matter.

US has threatened Germany energy independence in favour of wanting to allow the crooks in Ukraine to blackmail Europe. Funny how Europe is saying no.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 12:06
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
Germany. has a commitment to fund NATO and a failure in the person of Merkel.
She hates being shown to be what she is and is in trouble at home because of her policies.
The German Nation must fulfill its obligations under the NATO Treaty....just as the United States is obliged to fulfill its obligations.
Is it time to put an end to US involvement in NATO....after all we have two rather large bodies of water between us and Europe....and we are energy independent.
US involvement in NATO and military alliances is not just about using their military might, it is also about ensuring they use this as part of supporting US economy. US Diplomats happy to talk to Assad last year in Damascus and one of the basis of ending their support for the head hackers was that US companies get prime position in the reconstruction of Syria.

Is the UK and Europe energy independent....if not....then they are beholden to whoever supplies their energy needs.
My People are tired of War....and we have a President that does not want to get us into any unless it is in our direct definable National Security Interests.
If Merkel thinks she can trump Trump....that might very well be her last swing at the bat.
The Germans would be a lot better off without her and her Leftist policies.
No one is energy indpendent but if you are saying that Europe is beholding to whomever supplies their energy. Maybe that explains why US has kowtowed to Saudi's for decades and gave them a pass for killing Americans on 9/11 and let the Saudi's laugh about it.

So which is worse, beholding to US or Russia ?

I like Trump because of his desire not to start wars, its why the media and deep state detest him.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 12:25
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Rheinstorff View Post
Whilst I absolutely believe Germany should set a better example in NATO and spend more on Defence, I think there are broader strategic issues at play. Amongst these is the contribution that Germany has made to the financial and political stability of Europe. This has made Europe more secure (alongside many other contributions from many other countries and supra-national organisations). I acknowledge that some of Germany’s behaviours haven’t always helped, but strategic effect is nuanced and far more than just about how much is spent on Defence. Credit (at leas some) where it is due?
The southern Eurozone states have a very different perspective on Germany's contribution to financial and political stability in Europe. I don't agree with Varoufakis's Marxist views but I find his analysis of the issue here exceptionally compelling:

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Old 19th Mar 2019, 16:03
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Originally Posted by racedo View Post
Russia did not turn off the taps to refuse Germany gas. It was because Ukraine refused to pay its bills. This is why Nordstream 2 and SudStream have been built to end Ukraines attempt at blackmail which was happening. Stop with the personal abuse and focus on the subject matter.

US has threatened Germany energy independence in favour of wanting to allow the crooks in Ukraine to blackmail Europe. Funny how Europe is saying no.
I dont believe I said anywhere they shut off German gas. They did weaponize NG at that point. If you think Vlad would hesitate to use gas as a bargaining tool, you're wrong.

I must say I find it odd you like Trump because he doesnt start wars but you admire Putin because he does.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 17:27
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Well, one body of water and that body of water is the same now as it was in 1917 and 1941.
It depends which direction you travel in.....with various Bays, Gulfs, Seas and Oceans along the way....perhaps with a Canal or two as well.


You Euro-Centric folks might take a couple of minutes and consider what this article has to say about the Role of Energy production and the changes in technology and output cause in strategic relationships.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/...ependence.html


I would very much like to see a Strategic Alliance between all of the America's...North, South, Central , Canada, and Mexico.....for Energy Matters and leave the rest of the World to sort out its own solutions.

That would end any role the Middle East would play in our National Interests and throw it al into Europe's lap.

Europe and the UK could deal with Russia and the rest of the world like Japan and China could deal with the Arabs.

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Old 19th Mar 2019, 18:16
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I think Stuff made a decent point.

As to the Germans choosing to be more like Belgium and not pony up: not too surprised.
It is a lot easier to sell a program of collective defense to your political public than it is "to go elsewhere with our blood and treasure" ... which may be part of Merkel's problem.
The German political landscape is also morphing.

During the Cold War, we used to see this mutual eye gouging between the US and a wide number of NATO allies on who was or wasn't showing up to fill the buckets. A few years back, I was reading a biography of Ike and was interested to find out that this was a problem in the mid to late 50's as well. I'll make an estimate that it's been a source of political friction since the Alliance was formed. (And a few nations show up regularly and drop the money in the bucket)

There's been an ongoing political debate since about the time the Wall went down: whence NATO? Do we still need it? In the mid 90's, somewhat to my surprise with the "peace dividend" and Asia becoming a major area of strategic interest (Pacific Rim model). the vote remained "Yes." On this side of the pond, there were no few voices suggesting that it was time to retire NATO. Its purpose as a coalition had been served.
And then NATO collectively chose to do out of area ops.
This was not merely "collective defense." It became something new. (ISAF is but one NATO out of area op, but it's one of the longest running ones; the Bosnia IFOR/SFOR mission went for a good while as well)
NATO in the year 2019 is a new thing, though I guess the internal bickering is the same old-same old, but with more voices.

If it is time for any nation to leave NATO, all they have to do is give the rest one year's notice. That's in the treaty.
The question is, how do you throw one out? (Asked with the idea that the Caliphate reestablishes itself in Istanbul - Mr Erdogan now and again gives that impression).
That isn't in the treaty.
Then what? Whence NATO in that case?
Bickering about NATO funding balances would seem a lesser concern at that point.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 19:49
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If it's all down to energy and oil, surely the ideal is to import because at some point the reserves you are sitting on will far exceed their values now as the reserves of those you have used become depleted and dry up. You then become a major player.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 21:05
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Originally Posted by West Coast View Post
I dont believe I said anywhere they shut off German gas. They did weaponize NG at that point. If you think Vlad would hesitate to use gas as a bargaining tool, you're wrong.
Er US Govt happy to use it as a bargaining tool, it took Venezualan assets and handed them over to someone nobody ever elected to be President. Whether you like or dislike Maduro is irrelevant but one country deciding to confiscate assets and just hand them over to its favoured political pawn is not a good idea.

I must say I find it odd you like Trump because he doesnt start wars but you admire Putin because he does.
Nope I don't admire anybody starting wars but happy Russia got involved in Syria at the request of the Syrian Government unlike other parties.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 21:16
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
I think Stuff made a decent point.

As to the Germans choosing to be more like Belgium and not pony up: not too surprised.
It is a lot easier to sell a program of collective defense to your political public than it is "to go elsewhere with our blood and treasure" ... which may be part of Merkel's problem.
The German political landscape is also morphing.
When US leadership demands Nato members buy more stuff they really mean, "Buy more US produced stuff" rather than buy more native or UK or French produced.

When German politicians are openly viewing US Ambassador as akin to a "High Commissioner from an occupying power" then you start to see things unravelling. Germany is looking after Germanys economic interests.
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 21:28
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
If it's all down to energy and oil, surely the ideal is to import because at some point the reserves you are sitting on will far exceed their values now as the reserves of those you have used become depleted and dry up. You then become a major player.
This was US energy strategy from 1970's, extract and cap wells, in last 15 years it has been frack and produce. The fact that US Fracking is in debt to the tune of $250 Billion is the big story that people are ignoring. If Saudi's turn on the taps and get oil to $40 a barrel or lower then watch what happens.
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 01:10
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Originally Posted by racedo View Post
Er US Govt happy to use it as a bargaining tool, it took Venezualan assets and handed them over to someone nobody ever elected to be President. Whether you like or dislike Maduro is irrelevant but one country deciding to confiscate assets and just hand them over to its favoured political pawn is not a good idea.



Nope I don't admire anybody starting wars but happy Russia got involved in Syria at the request of the Syrian Government unlike other parties.
You're unable to stay on point. Russia will (and already has) use energy as a weapon. A simple yes or no, do you believe wouldn’t? You accuse the US of, curious to see if you’re so taken by Putin to think he wouldn’t.
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 02:04
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According to Lyndon Johnson, good politics aims to have everyone inside the tent, p***ing out, rather than having some outside doing the obverse.
Germany has fought Russia twice, to disastrous effect. It wants to co-opt Russia with economic ties and investments.
That seems more sensible than pushing Russia into the arms of Mr Xi.
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 02:42
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Originally Posted by racedo View Post
Bollocks
Next time you respond to me, please stay on topic.
When German politicians are openly viewing US Ambassador as akin to a "High Commissioner from an occupying power" then you start to see things unravelling. Germany is looking after Germanys economic interests.
You are about 30 years out of date. The "Occupying Power" deal ended about when the Wall came down, if not before. All the Germans ever had to do was do what President Corazon Aquino did in the early 90's in the Philippines: invite the Americans to leave.
We did.

The Germans to date have not had the guts to do what she did, or, they do not believe that it is in their interests to do so.
Given that Germany is the home country to the father of realpolitik, Otto von Bismarck, maybe you need to think a little harder about why the latter is more likely.

Your ax grinding does not do you credit, and is blinding you.

@etudiant
Interesting point.
The sell out to china started with Bush 41 about a year after Reagan left office.

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 20th Mar 2019 at 02:53.
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 16:36
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Nope I don't admire anybody starting wars but happy Russia got involved in Syria at the request of the Syrian Government unlike other parties.
Which involvement with Syria by the Russians are you referring to when you make the statement above?

The most recent one....or way back in time like almost Fifty Years?

As you are so happy the Russians are backing Syria still today....you might read the following NYT Article and tell us which part of the relationship between Russia and Syria you are most impressed by.


https://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/w...-and-deep.html
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 21:03
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
Next time you respond to me, please stay on topic.
First and formost you have made up something into a quote that I DID NOT POST.


You are about 30 years out of date. The "Occupying Power" deal ended about when the Wall came down, if not before. All the Germans ever had to do was do what President Corazon Aquino did in the early 90's in the Philippines: invite the Americans to leave.
We did.
The " " quote is a direct quote from a Senior German member of parliment who seems to have the support of the other parties. Nothing to do with me rather it is the view now been seen in Germany of the actions of the current US Ambassador. Both German major parties joined in with this criticism. Perhaps you should read the quote yourself.

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-us-amb...der/a-47975156
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