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-   -   Germany Plans to Renege on Pledge to Raise Military Spending, Defying Trump (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/619578-germany-plans-renege-pledge-raise-military-spending-defying-trump.html)

Lyneham Lad 18th Mar 2019 16:53

Germany Plans to Renege on Pledge to Raise Military Spending, Defying Trump
 
In the WSJ - Germany plans to renege on pledge to raise military spending.

From the article:-

The German government is poised to renege on its pledge to raise military spending, the latest gesture of defiance by Chancellor Angela Merkel toward President Donald Trump.

If confirmed at a cabinet meeting on Wednesday, the move would mark a fresh step in the gradual estrangement between the U.S. and its erstwhile loyal European ally and comes after President Trump’s repeated attacks North Atlantic Treaty Organization leaders for not meeting a 2% military-spending target.

racedo 18th Mar 2019 18:20

How is a country reneging on something when it takes its own sovreign decisions.

melmothtw 18th Mar 2019 18:31

Germany plans not to raise military spending - "You can't trust those Germans!"

Germany plans to raise military spending - "You can't trust those Germans!"

West Coast 18th Mar 2019 18:34

Putin can have the Germans. If they don’t see the threat, then so be it. Any Article 5 response should be proportionate to the German fiscal commitment.

melmothtw 18th Mar 2019 18:41

A commitment need not always be fiscal, West Coast. The Germans and everyone else responded the only time Article 5 has ever been invoked.

Could we say the US would do the same today?

West Coast 18th Mar 2019 19:03


Originally Posted by melmothtw (Post 10422811)
A commitment need not always be fiscal, West Coast. The Germans and everyone else responded the only time Article 5 has ever been invoked.

Could we say the US would do the same today?

What do you have to point at that as of today the US wouldn’t respond per its commitment? Op-eds don’t count. The answer is, the US would of course respond despite certain member nation not hitting their funding target. Don’t try and find equivance in the show of solidarity post 911 with fighting off tanks crossing the border. Or rallying NATO to fight genocide within Europe for that matter.





melmothtw 18th Mar 2019 19:08

Just the words of your president and the right-wing of your political class (the wing that used to oppose Russia, ironically).

And in terms of responding to Article 5, there absolutely is equivalency I'm afraid - that's the entire point of it. 'One for all, and all for one' in every circumstance.

racedo 18th Mar 2019 19:19


Originally Posted by West Coast (Post 10422801)
Putin can have the Germans. If they don’t see the threat, then so be it. Any Article 5 response should be proportionate to the German fiscal commitment.

It is not Russia that is demanding German consumers should pay billions more for their energy so US shareholders get bigger dividends.

In 2002 German rejected the claims for War in Iraq, abused at the time they proved to be right and unwilling to bend despite the abuse.

Germans understand history very well.



West Coast 18th Mar 2019 19:32


Originally Posted by melmothtw (Post 10422832)
Just the words of your president and the right-wing of your political class (the wing that used to oppose Russia, ironically).

And in terms of responding to Article 5, there absolutely is equivalency I'm afraid - that's the entire point of it. 'One for all, and all for one' in every circumstance.

Can you kindly point me to where Trump has changed US commitment to article 5?

Glad you can find equivalence to droning around the midwest US in the flight levels and taking incoming.

melmothtw 18th Mar 2019 19:47

NATO went to war over 9/11, and NATO soldiers (including Germans) died.

I have neither the time nor inclination to trawl through Trump' s Twitter feed, but it's all there if you care to look.

West Coast 18th Mar 2019 19:47


Originally Posted by racedo (Post 10422847)
It is not Russia that is demanding German consumers should pay billions more for their energy so US shareholders get bigger dividends.

In 2002 German rejected the claims for War in Iraq, abused at the time they proved to be right and unwilling to bend despite the abuse.

Germans understand history very well.

The question is do you understand history? Recent history at that. Do you understand the strategic implications of a weak Germany being energy dependant upon Russia, a stronger power? It’s not like the Russians haven’t used NG deliveries to achieve their means. If they hadn’t held Germany hostage over NG deliveries, it would only be a logical path to influence the Germans, now that they have, it’s a proven tool.

West Coast 18th Mar 2019 19:49


Originally Posted by melmothtw (Post 10422879)
NATO went to war over 9/11, and NATO soldiers (including Germans) died.

I have neither the time nor inclination to trawl through Trump' s Twitter feed, but it's all there if you care to look.


You base your assumptions on Twitter, that’s all I need.

melmothtw 18th Mar 2019 20:14

DOJ: Donald Trump's tweets are 'official statements of the President' - Washington Times

DOJ: Trump's tweets are 'official statements of the President'


...but you already knew that.

obgraham 18th Mar 2019 20:43

If Germans are paying more for their energy, it is because of decisions Germans made, and they long preceded Trump. But as usual, "when you don't like the way something is going, blame Trump".

racedo 18th Mar 2019 21:50


Originally Posted by West Coast (Post 10422881)
The question is do you understand history? Recent history at that. Do you understand the strategic implications of a weak Germany being energy dependant upon Russia, a stronger power? It’s not like the Russians haven’t used NG deliveries to achieve their means. If they hadn’t held Germany hostage over NG deliveries, it would only be a logical path to influence the Germans, now that they have, it’s a proven tool.

But they didn't did they. Russia isn't the country threatening to use Naval assets to blockade LNG ships delivering to customers is it, that was US Secretary of Energy. Russia hasn't attempt to blockade a country claiming it has got nuclear arms, while ignoring actions of its ally in funding them in Pakistan.

The attempt to sanction any company that is involved in Nordsteam 2 is warfare by another means, Europe is not playing ball any longer and US against this because it loses its hold.

US has used Oil as a weapon for decades just now countrys are refusing to bow down to US interests first rather than their own. US has been a force for good throughout the world BUT has also been a force for demanding its Industrys get preference over everybody elses, this keeps campaign cash coming to its politicians.

racedo 18th Mar 2019 21:53


Originally Posted by obgraham (Post 10422943)
If Germans are paying more for their energy, it is because of decisions Germans made, and they long preceded Trump. But as usual, "when you don't like the way something is going, blame Trump".

Germans will not be though, they will have guarantee of supply and not be concerned that Saudi's and their mates can blockade a country or threaten when it suits, like Qatar and Canada.

tdracer 18th Mar 2019 22:15


Originally Posted by racedo (Post 10422783)
How is a country reneging on something when it takes its own sovreign decisions.

Germany is part of NATO. But they are not fulfilling their NATO obligations. If their 'sovreign' (sic) decision is to not comply with their NATO obligations, then they should withdraw from NATO rather than expecting the US to cover their shortfall.

West Coast 19th Mar 2019 02:19


Originally Posted by racedo (Post 10423025)
But they didn't did they.

Are you kidding? 2009 Gazprom shut off the spigot. I get it, your Vlad’s apologist, but damn, 2009 wasn’t that long ago.

TBM-Legend 19th Mar 2019 02:26

Germany can do what they like...

Came second in two World Wars and accepted the money from the Marshall Plan to rebuild. Accepted the US help [and others] in the Berlin Airlift and protection in the Cold War. Maybe it's time for them to pay back if they want freedom..!

t43562 19th Mar 2019 06:43


Originally Posted by TBM-Legend (Post 10423171)
Germany can do what they like...

Came second in two World Wars and accepted the money from the Marshall Plan to rebuild. Accepted the US help [and others] in the Berlin Airlift and protection in the Cold War. Maybe it's time for them to pay back if they want freedom..!

Haven't they? How much is enough?


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